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Science vs Religion Part 4: The Role of Faith and Testimony in Science

By: The Baron

[Part 4 in a multi-part series on Science & Religion from an LDS perspective.  Previous entries in the series: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3]

“Faith” is almost universally considered to be a religious term…and not without reason, as there are 368 sections of scripture throughout the LDS standard works that discuss it.

Often, to a person on the science side of the debate, “faith” is not only a religion term, but a derogatory term at that.  “You (a religious believer) depend on ‘faith’“, you might hear, “while we (the science side) rely on fact”.

Is ‘fact’ really the opposite of ‘faith’?  Would it surprise anyone to learn exactly how much science depends on those so-called religious pillars of ‘faith’ and ‘testimony’?

Let’s imagine a hypothetical conversation.  (For fun, you can try this with someone you know who insists that faith is only for ‘religious people’):

Q: Is there a planet ‘Neptune’ in our solar system?

(Probable answer: ‘Yes’)

Q: How do you know?  Have you been there? Have you seen it?

(Probable answer: ‘No’)

Q: Then how do you know there’s really a planet ‘Neptune’?

(Answers could range from science textbooks, or other materials that attest to Neptune’s existence)

Q: So, someone writes it in a book and you just believe it?  Isn’t that having ‘faith’ in the ‘testimony’ of others?

(Not so, comes a likely retort, lots of other people have observed and collected innumerable amounts of clear, unmistakable scientific evidence that Neptune actually exists…)

Q: Okay, THEY have evidence (or say they do, anyway)…but YOU do not.  You, personally, have never seen nor have any evidence that Neptune actually exists.  You have not researched it nor witnessed it yourself, but rather are taking “Their” word for it.
 
The point is not to suggest some vast conspiracy of science about Neptune’s existence, but rather than the vast majority of “facts” that the average person (even the average scientist) claims to ‘know’, are really just accepting the testimony of others on faith, without having ever personally seen evidence of any of it.

How science really works:  Scientist A makes a discovery, and makes his conclusions known to others.  Scientists B, C, and D analyze the evidence and/or reproduce the steps themselves to check the discovery.  They also report their conclusions.

Now—here’s the point—Scientists E, F, G, and the other thousands of scientists worldwide will read the findings of A,B,C, and D in some scientific journal or something and will NOT reproduce the discovery on their own—they will accept the finding of those four scientists on ‘faith’ and continue forward.

If every scientist had to personally corroborate every scientific finding from the beginning of human civilization forward, scientific progress would grind to a complete standstill!  No scientist can possibly hope to personally verify every fact in every textbook and scientific journal even from one year to the next—having faith in the testimony of others is not only a characteristic of science, it’s fundamental to it!

This process works because Scientist E knows Scientist A is an ‘authority’ in whatever field he/she is reporting on.  (If, say, a marine biologist reported a discovery of a new planet in the solar system, this would be more of a ‘red flag’ and would create some doubt)  Furthermore, scientific discoveries are usually published in established scientific journals which have a reputation for reliability.  In this case, then, it is easier to accept this kind of testimony without personally verifying it, because the person’s authority in the field in question lends them more credibility.

(While rare, science does occasionally have problems with scientists falsifying data.  See this article from Germany, for example, about a 2005 scandal concerning faked data on ancient human skulls.  Note the quote that science “now has to revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 BC”.  Why is that?  Because other scientists had taken the original reported finding of the first scientist as ‘fact’ without personal verification, and had based their own research on it being true—simply because of the testimony of someone who was a supposed authority in the field.  While this sort of scandal is relatively rare in science, it does serve as an example of the role that ‘faith’ and ‘testimony’ really play in scientific progress.)

Note the following two situations:  Is there a fundamental difference between the two?

(1)  Scientist A discovers, say, a new nebula in the sky through a powerful telescope. Scientist B, C, and D corroborate the story by witnessing it themselves and reporting their experience.  Most others, without ever seeing the nebula themselves, believe in their testimony and accept the existence of a nebula as ‘fact’.

(2) Person A is visited by an angel and is shown golden plates.  Persons B, C, and D corroborate the story by witnessing the angel and the golden plates themselves and testify to that effect.  Others, without seeing the plates themselves, believe their testimony and accept the existence of those plates (and of angels) as ‘truth’.

But, you might object, each scientist from E forward *could* verify scientist A’s discovery if they wanted to—just because they don’t, doesn’t mean they *can’t*, because the scientific evidence that A-D found is still there if E, F, or G wanted to take the time to research it themselves.

Not necessarily…  In today’s modern world, we’re way beyond buying a $50 telescope at Wal-mart, sticking it in your backyard, and personally confirming all the discoveries that you just read about in “Astronomy” magazine.  Many modern scientific discoveries require very specific and powerful resources that are just not available to the common person…or even the common astronomer.

Likewise, many modern discoveries regarding subatomic particles require very large particle accelerators—it is literally impossible for the majority of scientists to personally verify many modern discoveries related to atoms or the far reaches of the cosmos even if they had a mind to.  Most people have to take the word of those scientists who have access to those resources on faith—they really have no other choice. 

(Some scientific discoveries are limited by remote location—the bottom of the ocean, for example—where it’s difficult if not impossible for other people to travel there and confirm the research of those who did.  Some science is time-dependent as well, where celestial bodies or events—comets, or super-novae, for example—have only a limited period of time where they can be observed and analyzed.  Once they’ve disappeared or moved on, everyone is forced to accept the testimony and resulting data of those who did witness it during that time period—there’s no chance of going back and confirming it themselves…)

The issue of ‘authority’ in regards to accepting testimony is a curious one.  If a doctor tells us we have “monochloritekilopiosis” (some medical condition we’ve never heard of), we usually just accept it without question.  The doctor is the ‘authority’ on medical conditions and even though we have no personal proof (or any evidence at all other than vague symptoms), we accept it because the doctor is, you know, just supposed to know these kinds of things.

(Likewise, when we buy expensive drugs in little blue pills that are supposed to treat this particular condition.  Are they for real?  Maybe they’re just jelly beans, and the drug company is depending on the “placebo effect” to create profits.  Could we prove it wasn’t?)

Is religion that different?   What makes the role of, say, a prophet different than that of a doctor, since “religion” is essentially the former’s “field of expertise” just like medicine is for the latter.  Assuming it's not really feasible for the common man to prove or disprove any assertion of either one—do we hold the former to a different standard of proof than we do the latter?  Are we more willing to accept the assertions of one at face value on faith versus the other?

The bottom line: both science and religion are closer to each other than usually admitted when it comes to “faith”, “testimony”, and the idea of “authority” which creates the credibility for others to believe the testimony in the first place.  "Faith" is not just a religious concept--virtually everything anyone's ever read or learned in school is taken on faith in the end...and that's normal.  Coming to understand the role of faith in secular life can prepare someone to understanding faith in regards to religion...and how similar they really are in the end.

Next: The problem with "Intelligent Design"

Print | posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 12:36 PM | Filed Under [ The Baron General Theology Science ]

Comments:

#1: Clark Goble

It seems to me to be dangerous in equating religious faith with belief on the testimony of an other. After all testimony can be justified in a way that religious faith can't in many ways.

One could argue that Mormonism with its more empirical and materialistic approach to God is more unlike the kind of faith one finds in other forms of Christianity. I'd agree to a point. But clearly there is a big difference between faith in God and faith in the words of a bunch of scientists undergoing peer review who are always testable in a fashion that God is not. That is I can visit a laboratory in a way I can't visit heaven.

Further if we use faith we have to keep in mind the religious faith of most who simply don't view religious knowledge the way Mormons do.
3/17/2008 1:35 PM

#2: Clark Goble

To add, religious faith is supposed to be more than just trusting what a prophet said.
3/17/2008 1:37 PM

#3: Jeff G

There are a number of points where I believe this post goes wrong.

First, and most direct, there is a huge difference between discovery by authority and justification by authority. While scientists learn and discover a great deal by way of trusting authorities, where they to claim, as religionists as supposed to do, that X is true because so-and-so said so they would become a laughing stock.

This leads to my second issue, in that I disagree with your characterization of faith. Scientists do not contrast faith with fact, but rather faith with reason. They claim that "reason" encompasses empirical and logical justification, whereas faith, inasmuch as it amounts to any kind of justification at all, does not consists in empirical or logical justification.

Dawkins & co. say that since faith is not empirical or logical justification it is simply a blind hope which is the very antithesis of reason, but I disagree. Where I think they go wrong is when they characterize faith as a factual belief which is not empirically or logically justified. Faith, however, is not merely a belief, for factual beliefs are not morally loaded as faith is. For instance, whether I believe some factual claim, X, or disbelieve it depends largely on evidence, etc., but if go against, or ignore evidence this makes me stupid, not evil. For the religious person, however, disbelieving in God is not simply being unconvinced by the evidence, or simply being stupid by getting the misinterpreting the evidence. Rather, it is a sin.

Notice how by characterizing faith as mere belief without empirical or logical justification Dawkins & co. when their argument from the word 'go'? What they need to do is realize that one can find justification for believes other than empirical and logical sources. Most moral claims are like this in that we don't consider a person simply wrong or stupid for not accepting the evidence for the claim that murder is wrong; instead we believe such a person to be sinning in such a belief.

Faith, I propose, is not factual belief which is not empirically or logically justified. Rather, it is a belief which is justified by the perceived importance of the belief. It is to believe in something because denying it is perceived to be morally intolerable.

Now with this characterization of faith in place we can see that many scientists probably do have some faith in the findings of science, but surely this faith cannot compare with that of the religionists in terms of intensity or the degree to which it is spread throughout the respective community. For instance, on the question of man's common ancestry with apes, scientists say 'yes' and feel their answer to be strongly justified by empirical and logical inquiry. Many religionists, on the other hand, say 'no' and feel their answer to be morally justified, for such a believe is perceived to entail a host of morally intolerable things. In this case, the religionist has faith while the scientist doesn't.

There is, however, a third case which can easily be imagined, if only because creationists frequently claim it to be true. Suppose that evolution isn't very well justified by empirical and logical inquiry, and supposed further that scientist accept only to further their atheistic agenda; in other words they find the belief in evolution to be morally justified due to their perception that the denial of evolution entails a morally intolerable belief, namely the existence of God. This, then, would be a case of faith operating in the scientific community. (I actually suspect that faith played a very influential role in the nature vs. nurture debates which have raged.)
3/17/2008 1:41 PM

#4: Lincoln Cannon

Reason, logic, mathematics, the scientific method, all are founded in and operate according to faith. Moreover, that will always be the case unless we become omniscient in the classical sense. The definition of "faith", and particularly its usage in a Mormon context, does not necessitate irrationality, dogmatism or antipathy toward knowledge -- although it is, indeed, too often accompanied by such. To the contrary, faith can (and, in my estimation, certainly should) lead to knowledge -- for example, faith in Christ should lead to knowledge of Christ. To the extent our faith is not leading to knowledge, we should be re-examining the targets of our faith and possibly adjusting them. Some suggest that science can proceed without faith, but that is an inaccurate assessment of science. Individual scientists are full of both ignorance and bias (often conscious and intentional), which clearly manifest themselves in hypotheses, experiments and observations. The value of science is that the method counters these individual variances through communal review processes, and thereby facilitates a more objective outcome -- but always only objectivity in the form of a shared subjectivity rather than in the form of a supposed negation of subjectivity.

Moreover, science certainly SHOULD be directed not only by our faith, but also by hope and compassion, whether some few naive or disingenuous persons are willing to recognize that or not. There are some kinds of knowledge that should not be pursued, either because they can be achieved only through excessively oppressive and destructive means or because they excessively increase risks of oppression and destruction. There are also some kinds of knowledge that are more worthy of our resource investments than others. The trouble, of course, is that it's hard work to come to agreement on what the bounds and direction of the scientific project should be at a particular time and place. Certainly it cannot, and generally should not, be dictated in a heavy-handed manner. Yet, barring extraordinary intervention, our ability to survive and thrive will increasingly depend on our ability, together as a community, to work out answers to hard ethical questions regarding science and its application in technology.
3/17/2008 3:24 PM

#5: The Baron

But clearly there is a big difference between faith in God and faith in the words of a bunch of scientists undergoing peer review who are always testable in a fashion that God is not.


Not *always*...I tried to list some examples in the post where no corroboration is possible under certain circumstances. A team of three astronauts who take a trip to the moon, do some scientific experiments, and report back their findings really have no way of being 'peer reviewed' except by themselves (or by another group who goes to the moon and performs the same experiment...but that's not really in the realm of reality for most scientists). You can analyze their results, and confirm the integrity of their scientific method...but at the end of the day, you have to take their word for what they found. (How easily would you be able to tell if the three of them were just making things up as a group, in other words?)

As Lincoln said, faith is part of the scientific process, not the antithesis of science altogether. Faith means not having a perfect knowledge of all things, and no one person can say they have a perfect knowledge of all things even amongst those things that "science" in general has accepted as 'fact' (without regard to spiritual things).

Jeff's point about bias is also important--many religious people fear science because they believe that embracing science means the destruction of faith in God (and thus their salvation). Part of the purpose of this series is to look at whether this is, in fact, true--that believing in evolution is incompatible with believing in God. (Obviously, I think the incompatibility is overstated...)
3/17/2008 3:41 PM

#6: Jeff G

And with that, I completely agree.
3/17/2008 3:53 PM

#7: Clark Goble

Jeff, while I agree largely with what you say, I think to LDS faith need not be opposed to reason. I agree that it is often so treated. (Kierkegaard comes immediately to mind) But the biggest problem is that the term "faith" is so equivocal. That is we mean so many unique things by it. We have to be careful.

Certainly there is a sense in which we trust an authority (God) which is the kind of faith being spoken of here. Yet our access to the community of scientists is different than our access to God. So we have to be careful as I mentioned earlier.

I think however that your idea of faith as tied to value is wrong as well. At least I just can't see it applying to the usual use of the term. Certainly we may value more those things we have more faith in simply because there is less risk. But that isn't what makes it faith. That just says something about what we choose to focus in on.

I do think that a common view of faith (such as found in Lectures on Faith) corresponds very roughly to William James' "will to believe." But I don't think that exhausts the LDS notion of faith and, as I mentioned, I think it becomes problematic when applied to other groups. (Although James at least makes a spirited defense of it relative to religion)


3/17/2008 4:27 PM

#8: kristine N

Baron--but all scientists report their data. Even if you personally can't go CERN to perform an experiment, you can verify the results of another by examining their data. As a scientist you have faith in the results of someone else only as far as they make sense to you in light of the data that are presented. Also, rather than characterize our belief in the previous results of others as faith, I see that belief as an assumption--something that is always subject to testing and, if necessary, revision. I'm with Clark on this one. I don't think it's appropriate to equate religious faith with scientific faith. While there are superficial similarities in the acceptance process of either type of belief (or knowledge, if you prefer), they are subject to very different standards of testing and criticism.
3/17/2008 4:28 PM

#9: Clark Goble

To add, there's then the issue of whether William James' particular formulation of pragmatism explains science. I don't think it does and it gets scant mention in most philosophy of science journals. Admittedly something related became significant in philosophy of science via Dewey: instrumentalism. (Although it appears to me more original to Dewey) But while instrumentalism is one way to think about science many philosophers of science don't think it correct. Further I'm not sure how to take an instrumentalist view of faith in an LDS context which seems to adopt a fairly strong Realism.


3/17/2008 4:29 PM

#10: Jeff G

"I think to LDS faith need not be opposed to reason."

I wasn't really arguing anything contrary to this. Rather, I was arguing that faith is a subset of reason which everybody endorses, be they religious or not. If Dawkins & co. want to restrict "reason" to empirical and logical inquiry, fine, but having faith in somethings which aren't supported by "reason" can certainly still be rational.

I agree that "faith" can mean so many things that it is hard to get a grip on it. For instance, my definition doesn't really cover the way the word is used in Alma 32 and it doesn't really cover trusting in the Lord either. Rather, what my definition is trying to get at is that which remains once one strips away all the other forms of epistemological justification (experience, logic, authority, tradition). It's aimed at the point where justification for religious beliefs threatens to become dangerously circular. Examples of this would be "Why should I believe that these feelings meaning what Alma 32 says they mean?" or "Why should I trust the Lord, other than just taking His word for it?"

Basically, what I'm saying is that when the religionist is confronted by some skeptic on some belief, X, which is not supported by experience, logic, etc. the religionist can still believe X while not being irrational. As you might notice, this position is strongly related to my own position on God, namely that I feel the burden of proof is on the theist and that burden has not been adequately met. What I see as religious faith is when the person places the burden of proof on the atheistic position due to the perceived importance of the belief in God.

3/17/2008 6:16 PM

#11: S.Faux

I see science as more complementary than oppositional. Both have areas of expertise that add to our knowledge. The domain of authority of science is nature and its functions. The domain of authority of true religion is morality, ordinances, and priesthood.

To me, science and religion are like the X and Y axes in a Cartesian plane. They are orthogonal. Information from both help locate a point, a line, or a polynomial function. In other words, life is more interesting and more informative when one has access to both science and religion.

By the way, the scientific concept of faith is confidence. This concept is especially important in making statistical inferences. Also, it take faith to stand on the shoulders of giants. Faith is all over science. But, let's remember that science is driven by empirical data.

Religion, on the other hand, is driven by spiritual data. It requires leaps of faith. It requires concepts that are merely hoped for, not seen. Fortunately, the Book of Mormon says to "experiment upon the word." Testing the word is a viable concept in Mormonism.

To me, both science and religion are needed, but ultimately there are some differences in method of operation.
3/17/2008 6:20 PM

#12: Mike L.

I've been pondering the faith vs. science debate regarding faith recently, and even wrote about it somewhat on my blog. To me I think it comes down to what "faith" means to you. The word is used to mean different things depending on how it is used. Alma 32 uses "faith" as a tool to build knowledge, but sometimes the word "faith" is used as if it is knowledge, or that it takes the place of knowledge somehow. To me, faith is a type of knowledge that is based on personal, spiritual evidence, as opposed to scientific evidence. Or the word faith can also be a tool as described in Alma 32.

Although I agree that the witnesses to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon are important, I don't think you can equate them with scientific witnesses. Like I said, for me, faith is a personal knowledge.

Of course I recognize that there are problems with my definition of faith. In particular, a couple scriptures that say, essentially, "faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things." Like I said, the word is used differently in different places, I believe. I'm still trying to figure some of this out.
3/17/2008 9:51 PM

#13: Eric Nielson

I think there are many people who would like to say that religion and science are not that different, which I believe is part of what Baron is saying. I agree in principle. One problem as I see it is that the spiritual evidence is not currently measureable. We don;t really know what the process of spiritual communication is and we don't know how to measure it. I feel that God is just and does not play favorites, and so if person A was to have a religious faith experience, then person B could conceivably duplicate that experience and get the same result. The problem is that exact duplication is nearly impossible and results are not currently measureable. I believe the process can be very scientific if we want it to be.....if we could only set up identical experiments and get actual measurements of the results.
3/18/2008 6:23 AM

#14: The Baron

I feel that God is just and does not play favorites, and so if person A was to have a religious faith experience, then person B could conceivably duplicate that experience and get the same result.

Is that really true? I believe God is just and fair from a general perspective, but not necessarily to the extent that everyone has the same spiritual ability or opportunities. I think the sections of scripture dealing with the different spiritual gifts make it clear that some people will have a different form of spiritual communication and knowledge that other people will probably not be able to duplicate no matter how closely you try to set up identical experiences...
3/18/2008 6:43 AM

#15: Eric Nielson

You bring up a good point. I was thinking more along the basic testimony lines. I do believe God will give us the type of experiences we need to progress. I also belive that each of us are in vastly different circumstances which can not really be duplicated which may account for differences in spiritual experiences. What I am mainly saying is that I do not believe God arbitrarily grants spiritula blessing based on nothing but his whims.
3/18/2008 9:37 AM

#16: BC

Your post confuses ‘faith’ with ‘trust’. We trust another scientist’s findings. The key point is that the scientific findings to be useful at all must be reproducible—even if at great expense. When we don’t bother to reproduce the findings we have ‘trust’, not ‘faith’. The difference if verifiability.
3/18/2008 11:18 AM

#17: The Baron

Well, what is 'faith' if not 'trust'--it's hard to compare how faith is used in science and religion when everyone seems to have different ideas what 'faith' really is. We trust the prophet's words because we believe he knows and understands things of God and the spirit that we don't. We trust the doctor because we believe he knows and understands things about the body that we don't. Is there a big difference here?
3/18/2008 2:10 PM

#18: BC

Semantics always muddles things. I will clarify this way: The ‘faith/trust’ a scientist employs is always verifiable, if not explicitly verified. The 'faith/trust' employed in religion is not verifiable.

To quote the inimitable Ronald Reagan; ‘Trust, but verify’. ‘Have faith, but verify’ would sound wrong.
3/18/2008 4:57 PM

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