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Science vs Religion Part 5: The Problem with Intelligent Design

By: The Baron

[Part 5 in a multi-part series on Science & Religion from an LDS perspective.  Previous entries in the series: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4]

Imagine a university with both math and literature classes.  (Okay, maybe that's not that hard to 'imagine'…)

Let’s suppose the literature professors create a syllabus for a literature class emphasizing a study of “Hamlet”, which the professors term “Shakespeare’s greatest play”

Suddenly, the math professors object, and--asserting their authority--make a requirement that before that literature class can be taught, the literature professors must first prove mathematically that Hamlet is, in fact, “Shakespeare’s greatest play”.  (Can’t just make assertions without proof, you know...)

Now this may seem absurd, since math and literature are in completely different spheres of human knowledge and how would one go about ‘proving’ Hamlet’s superiority through math, anyway?

Let’s suppose, though, that the literature professors accept this challenge, study up a little on math, and make the attempt.

There are two primary problems here:

(1)    They are bound to fail, since they are fighting on their opponent’s home turf, as it were—attempting to win a challenge in a venue that they have very limited experience in.  If the math professors don’t have proof of Hamlet’s value using math, how can the literature professors hope to?

(2)    By even accepting the challenge in the first place, they are lending credence to the absurd assumption that mathematics is, in fact, the proper way to assess the quality of literature to begin with.  By using math to defend literature, they are implicitly accepting the math professors’ assertion that math is the proper way to judge literature (or anything for that matter).  By conceding this assumption, a subsequent failure will likely be viewed as a repudiation of their initial assertion, not that the task was fundamentally impossible (and completely unsuitable) to begin with.

One of the recent developments in the science vs. religion debates is the introduction of Intelligent Design (ID) as an ‘alternate theory’ aimed at being taught alongside (if not outright in lieu of) evolution.

First of all, we should note that it is possible to believe that the universe had an intelligent designer, without actually supporting the educational and scientific paradigm of Intelligent Design.  I would submit, in fact, that ID is fundamentally flawed and doesn’t really deserve support, even from religious believers.

Let’s start by assuming for the moment that God does exist and that He did create the world.  That leaves us with two possibilities:

(1)    God works within science and natural processes (as theorized earlier in this series), in which case there would be no chance of “proof” of ID, since all the scientific evidence supporting an intelligent designer is already included in current science.  In this case, ID is redundant.

(2)    God works outside of science and natural processes, in which case there certainly wouldn’t be *scientific* proof of ID because…it’s outside of science, by definition.  In this case, ID is useless.

Either way, the assumption that ID could be considered as an ‘alternate theory’ in regards to evolution from a scientific perspective has some huge problems—the equivalent of those literature professors attempting to explain Shakespeare with math.  If there are mathematical elements to Shakespeare (iambic pentameter, for example), they are already a part of “math” and the lit profs have nothing additional to add beyond what the math professors already have.  If the elements of Shakespeare’s value lie outside of math…then obviously trying to use math to explain them is going to fail by definition, and they would be foolish to make the attempt.

Attempting to define a scientific (-ish) field of study to find evidence of higher intelligence seems doomed to fail in the same way.  The basic assumption seems to be, once again, that *IF* the universe had an intelligent designer, it would have been created differently than what science has already discovered.  Basically, evolution (and science in general) must be wrong in order for ID to be correct.

But, even assuming this is the case, how can you then use science to prove ID to be correct, when you’ve started the whole process by discrediting the ability of science to discover accurate truths about the universe in the first place?  Surely we can’t assume that the supporters of ID are such brilliant scientists (and all others hopelessly incompetent) that they can produce scientific evidence that’s completely different than what has already been discovered.

(A fundamental problem here is that you just can’t prove something had a designer.  A piece of art may LOOK like random blotches of color, as if paint had just randomly splattered onto the canvas without an artist’s guidance…but what if that’s exactly how the artist wanted it to look?  How can you prove otherwise?)

What ID ends up being, in lieu of actual progressive ideas, is a set of “anti-“ arguments.  ID proponents point out holes and questions in existing evolutionary theory, with the assertion that science’s inability to connect the dots through existing knowledge and currently understood random processes inherently implies having an Intelligent Designer.  A “God-in-the-Gaps” idea, essentially—where ‘proof’ of God consists of the lack of proof of “No God”.

This is correct in the sense that evolutionary theory is incomplete (and has many, many holes and gaps in painting a complete picture of the origin of man), but by definition an “anti-“ argument is inherently weak as it has nothing positive to be “pro-“ about.  ID is stuck pointing out flaws and asking questions about science’s progress, but has nothing positive to produce to support its own cause…and has nowhere to go if one day science does, in fact, make new discoveries that fill in those gaps.  (If we take the view that God works within science, this is not only possible, but inevitable...)

(This is directly comparable to “anti-“ LDS Church arguments, which ask questions and try to poke holes in existing explanations, but can produce no alternate theories that pass the laugh test to explain what evidence we DO have.  As with ID, arguments that “there’s no proof of X as it says in the Book of Mormon” have the same susceptibility to new discoveries which confirm X...and make the questioner look foolish.)

There’s nothing wrong with asking questions, or noting missing links—especially since science tends to overstate its own knowledge about the whole of human development anyway—but ID can’t possibly be considered as any kind of alternative field of science with nothing more than questions about the other side's factual foundation, without producing a factual foundation of their own.

ID appears to be a reflection of the fear and nervousness that many in the religious community feel towards the progress of science.  Science does not inherently repudiate religion, although certainly many on both sides of the debate may feel it does.  The real debate is not over scientific discoveries, but about conclusions.  Religion does not like that many (on both sides) look at current scientific research and conclude (whether rationally or not) that such research is incompatible with religion.

ID, though, is an over-reaction—attempting to ‘fight back’ against science through science rather than having confidence that their own side is ultimately compatible with whatever conclusions science comes up with, and letting things happen as they may.  By fighting on the other side's "home turf", religion (ironically) weakens their own position through ID, by essentially admitting that science is the only proper way to answer religious questions.

Attempting to prove religion through science becomes a tacit admission that failure to explain religion through science is a weakness of religion, rather than potentially being a fundamental limitation of science, instead.  (Certain things that are true about the universe may just be unanalyzable, unprovable, and ultimately incomprehensible to the human intellect)  By moving the burden of scientific proof off of science onto religion--which is almost certain to fail--the attempt to conform to science's expectations for religion through ID I believe will ultimately prove to be a backwards step for religion instead of forwards.

Next: The art of 'reconciliation'

Print | posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:42 AM | Filed Under [ The Baron General Theology Science ]

Comments:

#1: Jeff G

While I am entirely opposed to ID as it is actually practiced, I think you do not give it enough credit. Here is their basic mission in a nutshell: we know that Mount Rushmore was designed, while we know that Mount Everest was not, even though the latter is just as majestic as the former. Now, what about that face-shaped mountain on Mars? Some say designed and (most) others say natural. Is there some disciplined way to distinguish features which are designed, created by top-down processes, from those which "naturally" occur, created by a bottom-up process. "Naturally" occur in this context does not mean "miracle-free", but rather without intelligent intervention, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why science couldn't find such a difference, in principle. (My personal opinion is that if something can reproduce itself, chances are it doesn't require a designer.)

You are, however, absolutely right about the motivations for the ID movement; they are entirely misplaced. Let's just imagine that everything that ID has been saying about irreducible complexity and information theory turns out to be right, even if such a scenario has a snowball's chance in hell. Even if ID's wildest dreams come true, we are still left with the following:

An ancient earth
Lot's of death before the fall
No exclusive, original parents "Adam and Eve"
Man is still "just" another animal, sharing a common ancestor with apes

In other words, precisely none of the things which motivate ID are solved by ID. Sure, they might get to say that "God did (some of) it", but you don't have to embrace ID to do that.
3/19/2008 1:37 PM

#2: R. Gary

According to USU Philosophy Professor Richard Sherlock, intelligent design is not "a single movement with a defined credo or set of principles to which all proponents of design pledge themselves" (Mormonism and Intelligent Design, FARMS Review 18/2, 2006, 45-81). Have any of you read (on pages 46 and 47) his "let us suppose" discussion of the Voyager I spacecraft? I have and it makes a lot of sense to me.
3/20/2008 12:29 AM

#3: Jeff G

Gary,

While it is true that ID comes in a variety of flavors, when I speak of ID, I mean that which comes from the Discovery Institute and its fellows, especially Dembski and Behe.

As for the Sherlock paper, his Voyager analogy is deeply misleading. First, let me say what is good about it. As I said in my comment, and contra what The Baron suggested in his post, I think science could, at least in principle, find ways of distinguishing the planned, from the unplanned. (I like that term more than "designed".)

However, differentiating watches from rocks is VERY misleading. Watches and rocks simply aren't the kinds of things which lend themselves to evolutionary analysis since they 1) don't reproduce and 2) have no struggle for survival. Once you have things like organisms, however, which 1) reproduce imperfectly and 2) struggle for survival and reproduction, this changes everything. Was I created by random forces, or was I designed? The answer is neither, I was created by my parents. And they were created by their parents, and so on. The question then becomes where did the first parents come from? The fact is that since reproduction is not perfect, we have no reason to believe that the "first" parents were anything like us, assuming the family tree goes back far enough.

The notion of imperfect reproduction is exactly what makes the analogy between rocks/watches and evolution/ID fail in pretty much every significant way.
3/20/2008 2:32 AM

#4: R. Gary

Jeff,

"When I speak of ID, I mean that which comes from the Discovery Institute and its fellows, especially Dembski and Behe."


Then you would agree that Dembski and Behe "represent the mainstream of the intelligent design approach to the origin and development of life on earth." (Sherlock, op cit, p.46.)

I checked. Sherlock names Dembski and/or Behe an astonishing 31 times in that paper. Plus there are several references to Dembski and Behe that don't actually contain their names. I believe he IS talking about Dembski and Behe. But, then again, not all proponents of design adhere to a defined set of principles and therefore I think The Baron can intelligently discuss intelligent design without even mentioning Dembski, Behe, or the Discovery Institute.

As for Sherlock's Voyager analogy being "deeply misleading," all I can say is that I don't agree with you. I just don't believe that every origins analogy must explain iterative selection and descent with modification.

On the other hand, I can honestly say that I always enjoy our blogging encounters.
3/20/2008 6:10 AM

#5: Eric Nielson

Baron:

I may be misreading you post, I have done that a few times.

My thoughts upon reading it go to objective knowledge and subjective knowledge. It seems clear the math end is equivalent to science and the literature end is equivalent to religion. I think this is a good comparison. Science wants (and needs) things to be objective and measureable. I think the problem is that not everything that is going on is objective and measureable. But that does not mean it is not real or true.

In terms of religion, we will simply need to make some choices about things that we can not currently measure. I do not think we need to feel bad about that. Many of us certainly feel something, and that what we feel is real. But we should understand it's limitations. Ideally we would not get all defensive about certain claims of science.
3/20/2008 6:18 AM

#6: BC

The Voyager analogy and the more popular watch analogy are flat out wrong, and are designed to fool the foolish. Sorry, but it so upsets me that this is proffered up as ‘science’.

That Voyager is ‘obviously’ designed has nothing to do with its complexity and everything to do with the fact that it is out of norm with its environment with no means of reproduction.

Humans, on the other hand, fit nature beautifully and have means of reproduction as Jeff G. has pointed out.

The purpose of ID is to insinuate itself as ‘science’ itself in order to discredit legitimate scientific progress which many (not all) religious minded folk see as a threat to their world view.

Sorry for the minor rant…
3/20/2008 10:37 AM

#7: The Baron

That Voyager is ‘obviously’ designed has nothing to do with its complexity and everything to do with the fact that it is out of norm with its environment with no means of reproduction.


This brings up an interesting point: if evidence of a 'designer' is partly based not on complexity, but on just how obviously different something is from its environment, then doesn't that make it easy to 'overlook' the creation of nature, since (presumably) it all has the same Creator? Ironically, more people might accept the existence of God if He had created *some* of nature, but not all of it, because then the 'some' would have some obvious differences with the rest and provide more circumstancial evidence of a Creator.
3/20/2008 1:16 PM

#8: Jeff G

Gary,

I'm not sure why you ask, but I would certainly agree that Dembski and Behe represent a kind of mainstream in ID. Furthermore, while they certainly do apply their ideas to the origin of life problem, the origin of life problem has exactly zero to do with biological evolution. You are probably aware of this, but it is worth mentioning all the same.

With regards to the analogy, I'm not saying that an analogy must explain reproduction and selection. Rather, what I'm saying is that because life is subject to reproduction and selection while non-life is not, any analogy between the two will be REALLY misleading.

After all, here is the reasoning: What is the only way we have ever seen rocks come into existence? Natural processes. What is the only way we have ever seen a watch come into existence? Design. Therefore if we come across a watch in the rocks, how should we suspect that it came into existence? The answer is obvious on this count.

Now let's extend this reasoning to life. What is the only way we have ever seen a human come into existence?" Birth from two parents. If we come across a human among rocks, how should we suspect that it came into existence?" The answer here is certainly NOT design. Rather, it is that the human was born from two parents.

The analogy works AGAINST, not for ID.
3/20/2008 1:51 PM

#9: Jack

I think you're overextending the analogy. Sherlock says, in so many words, that it's *obvious* that Voyager is designed. He then equates that "obviousness" with the possibility of design features in the universe. He doesn't posit a one to one ratio between a watch (Voyager) and the human body. Plus one could draw a more direct analogy between Voyager and the universe as a whole.

As to the primary post: I think you're creating a false dichotomy by assuming that math has no rational exploratory means of interpreting the arts. One might argue that Hamlet may, on some level--perhaps structural, be viewed through a mathematic lens. There are act divisions, scene divisions, a triple plot--each with it's respective trajectory. There are the well timed interactions of the various plots, the well timed internal development of specific characters, and so forth.

Theoretically, one may critically analyze the works of Shakespeare in such a way that they appear to be more of a well-oiled machine than an organic construct. And so, while math may not be able to get to the bottom of art, it doesn't mean that it can't be useful in clarifying some of the more mechanical aspects of art. In fact, I would go so far as to say that math helps to identify "design" in art. It helps to get inside of the abstract-ness of beauty. Math is, after all, a language of sorts.

This brings me to my final point: I think Neo-Darwinism needs a kick in the rump with respect to it's dogmatism. It's claims are no more presumptive than those of the IDers with respect to the origin of life, the workings of the basic laws of the universe, consciousness, and so forth--and yet they dismiss design with a slight wave of the hand. Evolutionists need to make a little more room in their tool box for the methodologies of other disciplines.

3/22/2008 5:54 PM

#10: Jeff G

In what, exactly, does the dogmatism of the evolutionist consist? They don't claim that there was never any intelligent design, per se. Rather, they claim that ID is worthless as a scientific hypothesis. In this they are completely right. IDers always claim that the Darwinists are fanatically dogmatic, but never say what it is that the evolutionists are being dogmatic about.
3/23/2008 2:09 AM

#11: Jack

Jeff,

You're right that Darwinists have kept the door open to design, but only because it's impossible to disprove (it at this point). There *is* an underlying assumption on the part of most Darwinists that the question of whether or not God (designer) is in the machine is moot. And because of that assumption what we have are scientists postulating naturalistic ideas that require just as much faith (if not more) than religion does--such as the idea of an infinite number of universes. And so, while no one has the slightest clue as to whether or not such a model reflects reality, it is viewed by some as a viable hypothesis.

So, while I (a non-scientist) tend to side with the evolutionists, I think, at times, they have this way of not seeing their own hypocrisy as they brush off design as a mere invention of dogmatic religionists.
3/23/2008 1:13 PM

#12: Jeff G

Jack,

Science, all science, assumes that God plays no role. This is the methodological naturalism which must be in place for science to even begin. If you want to call this 'dogmatism', fine, but be sure to include physicists, chemists, and all other scientists as well.

Of course in this series we have pushed the question a little further: Why does the naturalistic assumption works so well if it is not true?

BTW, Neo-evolution has nothing to do with how many universes there are, how life originated or what the basic laws of the universe are. Neo-Darwinian evolution has to do with the origin of new species, not the origin of physical laws, life or the universe itself.
3/23/2008 2:08 PM

#13: Jack

Jeff,

I understand that--and I'm fine with it so long as science recognizes it's implicit claim to epistemological limitations by staying within the boundaries of naturalism. Unfortunately, I don't think that is always the case. There are assumptions on both sides of the argument that lead to dogmatism.

Also, I don't think you can neatly shuffle Neo-evolution out of the argument by disconnecting it from the larger Darwinian picture. Placing the basic laws of the universe off base, for instance, seems to imply that discovering design in such would have no bearing on any other discipline. If (hypothetically!) design were discovered by means of one scientific discipline then it would probably be accepted across the board as a viable deductive process. Plus, if we are to follow the Baron's analog through then it seems we ought to be open to the widest possible application of diverse disciplines--as in my attempt to show how math might be useful in analyzing art.
3/23/2008 3:31 PM

#14: Jeff G

So I finally got around to reading the article which Gary mentioned above in full. I have to say that FARMS did the LDS community a serious disservice by letting that piece be published. It's almost as if nobody with serious training in evolutionary theory or philosophy of science proof-read the thing.

I already mentioned the failure of the design inference in a comment posted above. I also pointed out that claims regarding the origin of physical laws, life or the universe are entirely separate and distinct from the ID/evolution debate. This alone sets at least half of Sherlock's article off to an irrelevant side.

Here are a couple of extra points worth mentioning:

When Behe and Dembski offer scientific criticisms of the Neo-Darwinian synthesis, they are not presenting another theory. Rather they are simply criticizing the only scientific theory which biology has for the origin of species. In such cases, the IDers are doing science; it's just really bad science which doesn't accomplish what they hope it does.

When Behe and Dembski offer their own positive theories they cease to be doing science at all. They offer no empirically testable hypotheses at all. They abandon methodological naturalism, which is a defining feature of science. Even if there are no definite boundaries between science and non-science, we do know that science must at least have those two things. To repeat, in their positive theories, IDers are not doing science at all, not even bad science.

Behe and Dembski do, however, seem to be engaging in philosophy, although rather poor philosophy at that. It is for this reason that I think ID should be taught in school, just not in the science curriculum. After all, "teach the controversy" is a slogan that only makes sense in the humanities and social sciences, not the physical sciences which ID aspires to.

A couple of final notes about Sherlock's complete misconstrual of the Neo-Darwinian synthesis. The creation of new species is governed by natural selection operating upon random mutations, and natural selection is not, by any stretch of the imagination "random". Furthermore, nobody claims that mutation and selection is all there is to this process either. Sherlock's denying these two points in his paper makes him seem like a significantly underqualified representative of the ID/evolution debate.

And finally, I object to Sherlock's misrepresentation of theistic evolution. While Sherlock makes it sound as if scientific religionist must choose between what he calls theistic evolution and ID, he complete writes off a third, and by my lights the most stable position for such a person. He describes theistic evolutionists as people who believe that God creates species by way of evolution, just as God makes things fall to the ground by using gravity. This, however, is not theistic evolution at all, but is actually deistic evolution akin to what was fashionable in 19th century Britain. What theistic evolution actually holds is that God directed evolution to where we are today through unknown means. This is the difference between saying that God drives the car of evolution toward some destination vs. God acts by way of the car of evolution, wherever it may go. Yes, ID is a sub-set of theistic evolution, but not all theistic evolutionists must be IDers. Thus, the theistic evolutionist still holds that God is in control, somehow, but doesn't stick their neck out by making the absurd statements which makes the IDers look so ridiculous.
3/24/2008 8:02 PM

#15: Jack

Jeff,

Yeah, I think FARMS could have done better on that one--though I'm not completely unsympathetic to some of Sherlock's concerns . But even so, I'd like to see them publish a rebuttal by someone with real training in the field. I agree also that ID (at this point) is really a topic for discussion in a philosophy class--not something to be taught in the science arena.

That said, what I'd really like to see is a greater interdisciplinary dialogue between "hard" science and "soft" science--and even non-science in some instances. I think doing so would help channel all involved away from dogmatism. The idea of a biologist, a neurologist, a psychologist, and a philosopher (and whoever else) chatting about the workings of the human mind is ... well you can image. I'd love to be a fly on the wall listening as they battle away--and hopefully the net outcome would be a synergistic dialogue which, while recognizing the knowable, pushes the boundaries of exploratory methodologies with respect to the unknown.
3/25/2008 9:02 AM

#16: Jeff G

Jack,

They already do this, especially in the study of consciousness.
3/25/2008 11:11 AM

#17: Jack

Wellllllllllll ... yes, they do--and that's why i said *greater* interdisciplinary dialogue--but I don't think the hard sciences really take the soft sciences as seriously as they should. In fact, I'd say that there's probably more cooperation in the study of consciousness because the hard sciences really don't know what to do with it.
3/25/2008 3:16 PM

#18: richard Sherlock

Jeff and others

I can assure you that my farms essay was read by those with biological and philosophical training. I revised it just as any scholar would do. FARMS wants to publish a response to date they have none. If your analysis is the best out their from the LDS commun9ty they will never have one. Evolutionary theory per se is intellectual non sense and not worthy of serious minds which I presume you are. If you admit that God might have created the universe ( the anthropic cosmological principle) for which Cambridge astro-physicist John Barrow wone the Templeton Prize and if you ADMIT that we have no explanation for the emergence of life from non- life and we do not why must be wedded to a material explanation of that. If you say we have to then WHY. If you insist on a material explanation then I submit you have given up Mormonism. There is no material explanation for the resurrection, the resurrection of Lazarus or the person Nephi resurrects in the B of M > I did not say that it was obvious that the voyager was designed before examination by our distant scientists. I said that they would come to that conclusion and so would any intellegent mind. If God can intervene at the origin of life and in miracles like the resurrection why cant he specifically intervene in the process of life . e.g the cambrian explosion or the coming of distinctively human life, not just primates african ancestors. I did not say and do not believe that evolution could not have produced our body. Nor do I believe that there was no death before the fall or that earth is only a few thousand years old.
You have not answered the mathematical objections to randomness and variation and no one really has. Furthermore sciences like paleontology and ecology do not make testable assertions. They take what the data shows and give the best explanation they can for it. e.g. descent with modifications. They use inference to the best explanation or what the great american philosopher C.S. Pierce called abduction. This is widely used in science. So to does the SETI project use this. So why shouldn't we use abduction to say that the best explanation for some extremely complex biological phenomena is a designer. And if you are a devout theist as I am then the designer is God. But you might say we can't mix religion and science like this . WHY NOT. We because that isn't science. What you have given me a simply a stipulative definition that carries no weight with me stipulative definitions are useless. We cartainly can investigate whether a complex biological event can be explained biologically or when the person getting well is best explained by a Divine miracle. If you deny miracles in this way you are on the loosing end of a Mormon argument as I can very personally attest.
Why are you so wedded to material explanantions in all science. The data from the neurosciences, from studies of miracles e.g. by the Catholic Church in preparation for sainthood and from meditation studies show your faith and it is a faith to be misplaced.

Just a note to someone who said that giving voice to ID will cheapen their BYU biology degree. Sorry but that already happened when they ignored ID



3/26/2008 4:09 PM

#19: richard Sherlock

Jeff and others

Just an additional comment. Dogmatic materialism is just as dogmatic as faith. By why are you so dogmatic about material causation. Stipulative definitions like this get you no where. Searching for material explanations is fine. But when they aren't coming try something else.

Furthermore, design does give rise to further questions. How was it designed ? What role does each part play ? And especially what pupose does it fulfill. The goal or purpose or telos of living things is ignored by modern science to it everlasting shame. If god acts in nature to guide nature fine I agree but then give me some idea of where and when and you'll in the ID camp. Good come on in the water is fine.


3/26/2008 4:20 PM

#20: Jack

richard Sherlock,

I agree with you on the problem of dogmatism in science (as well as faith). I think the problem you have with your paper is that you're veering into the sciences' territory and their going to demand that you speak in their terms if you want to have any meaningful communication on the subject(s)--and rightly so, I think--you've got to give them something falsifiable. But what science needs to realize (more than they do) is that meaningful dialogue can happen outside of that paradigm--dialogue that can be truly informative to the sciences. And so I think the problem is really rooted in philosophy more than factual evidence. Science will always be the first to tout it's own humility in not knowing all that might be known--but let a discipline outside the sciences suggest an alternative approach to the unknown and the scientific community becomes incredibly dismissive.
3/26/2008 5:29 PM

#21: richard sherlock

Jack,

your humility is good but the popperian 'falsifiabilty " criterion for science went out a long time ago. Paleontology and ecology to name two are not offering falsifiable predictions. In its general way of being presented neither does evolution The fittest survive . What are the fittest? Those that survive? Popper himself recognized this.

3/26/2008 7:43 PM

#22: Jeff G

Why do I get the feeling that Richard didn't even read my objections? I could respond to him, but I would simply be repeating what I have already said. I will say this, however:

"If you insist on a material explanation then I submit you have given up Mormonism."

And if you allow for non-material explanations then I submit you have given up science. Seriously, Baron, Richard is the guy you should be dedicating these posts to.
3/26/2008 11:08 PM

#23: richard sherlock

test
3/27/2008 9:05 AM

#24: richard sherlock

Folks ,

None of you are aparently aware of a grown body of peer reviewed work show that scioence can show that non materal explainantions are the best available. Meditation studies in zen and TM showing that long term meditators
( a non material cause) alters the structure of the brain ( physical result) This same result does not happen with people who have just benn taught ZEn meditation for 1 week. See Mario Beauregard and Denyse O'leary The Spiritual Brain ( Harper 2007) Mario is a top neuroscientist. Furtheermore do you deny real miracles for which no material explanation exists. You can say 1no miracles exist. In which case you have given up mormonism, I would'nt like that for your sake but ypu have freedom. 2 you could say that material causality exists but God is just using
"higher " or "unknown" laws. But if so then given the number of unexpalined miracles in the restoration and in other traditions then the result is that we know next to nothing about physical law. But this move is based on empiricism but then rejects empiricism in favor of an article faith about material causality. 3 you could say we really do know a lot about nature but that some times God just can suspend the operation of nature to get a result he wants in that specific case. 3 preserves our knowledge of nature and the reality of miracles that are best explained by Divine action. Recociliation is good but not if it gives up real, serious faith.
3/29/2008 11:01 PM

#25: Jeff G

For future reference, if you are trying to accrue some respectability for your position, referencing that book is not such a good idea. Even reviewers who are squarely on the side of ID are not impressed by it.

As for whether whether miracles exist or not, the question is moot. Inasmuch as miracles exist, they are not a part of science. This is one of the main reasons why ID should be kept out of the science classroom, even though I think it definitely should be taught in philosophy.

Perhaps science could be used to show that natural causes are not sufficient to explain some phenomena (as that book attempts to do) but science, especially neuroscience, is nowhere near complete enough to show any such thing.
3/30/2008 2:37 PM

#26: richard sherlock

Your response is evasive. You may not like the book but the reearch reposted there and in many other studies was published in peer reviewed journals. Do you say that the peer reviewers are wrong or the journals bad. If the research is sound then purely material explanations can't be sufficient. But you still have never answered the key question why should science ignore non material causes or extraordinary events like miracles. Science can show that no known material cause can expalin an event . For example when a miracle is examined in the process of becoming a catholic saint a panel of medical experts examines the case. They check all the reports of the diagnosis and make sure nothing is overlooked. They check the prognosis and the process of the disease and the treatment. What they must conclude is that no test and no treatment was overlooked. They then conclude that no material cause exists for the improvement or cure. Is this an illegitimate use of science. Surely not. Unless can answer the key question you can't make the argument you wish to make. Science classes could state confidently that materialism is insufficient, the neuroscience data will show that. Then why not ID
3/30/2008 5:23 PM

#27: Jeff G

Wow, I disagree with you almost all the way through.

I would suggest that science cannot demonstrate that a material explanation is impossible for some phenomenon. Sure, it is easy to show that material explanations escape us in lots of cases, but this is no reason to believe for a second that there isn't a material explanation out there to be found all the same.

I don't doubt for a second that the book contains research which was published in peer review journals. This, however, does not mean that the book itself is peer reviewed. It reminds me all too much of other ID books such as Behe's, etc. Sure they contain references to peer reviewed work, but to say for a second that Behe's argument are anything less than unsupported is naive.

"why should science ignore non material causes or extraordinary events like miracles."

Because science is by very definition naturalistic. Once you invoke causes which are inscrutable, you simply aren't studying anything any more. That is why, as I have already said, science necessarily assume methodological naturalism. If you invoke non-natural causes or miracles, you are no longer adhering to methodological naturalism and you are no longer doing science. End of story. If you don't like this, fine; invent some other method of inquiry and hope that it is as progressive as natural philosophy (what science used to be called) has been. Science doesn't presume to be the ultimate truth on any question, but this is not to say that it hasn't earned the overwhelming respect which it has accrued.

Why is it that a scientist can't say "I don't know" without people rushing to cram God and religion into the perceived gap in our knowledge? Isn't this what ID does? Isn't this what that book of yours does? Complete and total arguments from ignorance.
3/31/2008 12:23 AM

#28: richard sherlock

I will respod to this nonsense only because others may be sucked in to this drivel. You are trying to stipulatively define what science is. What reason can you give for such a definition. I can give you many peer reviewed articles about meditation, Zen and prayer that show that material causality fails to explain all reality. What argument can you give me to so limit science. I don't think you have one except the statement " science is this" why "because I said so". If you continue to hold materialism then that is a faith not open inquiry.

Do you think that abduction or inference to the best explanation is a sound way to proceed in science. You should because serious philosophers of science do. If so then when we encounter something that might be designed we need to know how to detect design. Take the following case. Archeologists discover the ruins of some sort of very very ancient civilization. The people who left it are "inscrutible " just like my analogy in the FARMS article to our satellite crashing on a distant planet. We are inscrutible to them. Should we just give up and say well nature cut this stone just this way or should the archeologists say this looks designed and then ask what was it designed for. I think the answer is obvious. ID is not a God of the gaps . ID says that the archeologist, the forensic scientist, the SETI researcher and lots of others need to detect design. If you have a design you will have a designer.

Two fundamental questions. Did Lazerus rise from the dead. If he did not so be it. But if did as I strongly believe then you can either appeal to hidden material causes of which we know nothing or you can say an external agent brought it about for a conscious purpose . Whose trading in mystery now?

Secondly, is SETI good science ? If it is we need to detect design. Furthermore , how can the researcher know he is talking to an alien and not god unless he presupposes atheism.

Please give me a reason for presuming that only material causes count in science. I do not think you can
3/31/2008 7:14 PM

#29: Jeff G

I still have no idea what the specific thesis is that you are trying to defend. You just seem to be taking buck-shots at science where ever you perceive a problem.

Lazarus, the origin of life, etc. have nothing to do with ID. Even if those thing were cases of miracles, that says absolutely nothing about the ID/evolution debate. Now can we finally seal off that red herring? In fact, while we're at it, let's acknowledge that the book in question right now has nothing to do with ID/evolution either, so why bring it up?

With regards to abduction, I fully endorse, if only because it works against, not for ID. I have said this many times in this thread and you have continued to ignore it. Until you can ignore the serious objections I brought against this point, I will set this issue aside as well.

With regard to SETI, I have no idea. Since nobody has claimed to have found an intelligent signal, since there is relatively little politicking involved it the process, and since it is not clearly motivated by desires to justify religious beliefs, I don't have too many problems with it. Of course you will never find people legislating "teach the controversy" about E.T. in high school science classes will you?

Fianlly, and most importantly, science is naturalistic. (Forces are not matter, so I prefer naturalistic to materialistic.) I'll dedicate my next comment to this issue. Before I move on, however, I should mention that I'm not against ID in principle. If we can find some way to reliably detect intentional design in biological systems, wonderful. I've simply never heard of any such method. Even if such a method were developed, it surely should not be presented to high schoolers. What I am against, even in principle, however, is the invoking of supernatural causes in science. This, however, is what the next comment will be about.
3/31/2008 8:29 PM

#30: Jeff G

Let me assure everybody who is still reading this rather fruitless conversation, that science is quite naturalistic. Richard acts like I am simply inventing definitions on the fly to suit my own purposes. Science is naturalistic by definition, not because I say so. This can be seen in a number of ways.

1. The people who invented and pioneered 'natural philosophy' (what would later be called 'science') knew it was naturalistic. I'm thinking here of not only Descartes and Bacon but those great thinkers from the Renaissance who held that there were four things which were central to science: a) it is to explain natural phenomena in terms of their causes, b) nature is closed, both epistemologically as well as ontologically in that there can be no supernatural causes allowed, c) experience and experiment are central and d) mathematics is peculiarly useful in describing natural phenomena. This point is meant to show that science was created as a naturalistic enterprise.

2. There are no super-natural theories in science. If science allows for supernatural explanations, then where are these supernatural explanations which science has never been against? We simply don't have any, and there's a reason for this. This point is meant to show that the naturalistic assumption has continued to this day.

3. The difference between the natural and the super-natural is pretty much demarcated by science. If something is observable by traditional means, it is pretty much defined as natural, and whatever is not a part of science is defined as supernatural. This point is a conceptual argument for the claim that science is naturalistic.

4. Once one has invoked supernatural causes, one has moved beyond that which is scrutable. One cannot observe, measure, confirm or disconfirm supernatural entities or claims. Supernatural causes are conversation and knowledge stoppers. This point is meant to serve as a justification for the creation and continuation of the naturalistic assumption in science.

5. It is pretty much impossible to imagine any evidence counting in favor of a supernatural explanation. What crucial experiment could ever be devised which would favor a supernatural theory over the theory that there is a naturalistic explanation which we have simply not found yet? There seems to simply be no way we could ever have a disciplined study of the supernatural. This point is meant to illustrate how supernaturalism is a conversation stopper in science.

6. Given the above, presumption lies with naturalism (at least of the methodological sort) in the case of science. If we are going to allow supernatural explanations into science, a convincing argument must be given for this. It is not enough for one to claim (as Richard does) that there is no reason to exclude supernatural causes, as if it were up to the naturalists to meet some burden of proof.
3/31/2008 8:48 PM

#31: richard sherlock

Appealing to authority is not an argument. I can just as easily appeal to Boyle and Newton. Actually science goes back to the Greeks. Aristotle was the greatest biologist ever and he thought that purpose or final cause was essential to proper understanding. Final cause is not a conversation stopper. It just turns the conversation in a different way. So point 1 is irrelevant. point 2 simply asserts what needs to be proven. point 3 is totally confused. What is science? No serious philosopher of science would today say we have solved the demarcation problem. You are not making an argument you are making an assertion. Is m-theory ( the latest iteration of string theory ) science. Surely but it is not observable by traditional means. Do you admit that inference is legitimate to confirm something like the expanding universe discovered by Hubble or M-theory. If you do then why can't we infer that in some cases divine action is the best current explanation. Science is not always experimental and you should know it ( M-theory, big bang, origin of life, expanding universe, paleontology, ecology, etc.) Supernaturalism was not a conversation stopper to Newton or Boyle why need it be now. Design theory is a coversation expander as I have shown before and you have ignored. In my view most events have naturalistic explanations but some do not. Why not adopt a methodological pluralism

You have not said whether you think SETI is science Most importantly you will not say whether you believe that Lazarus rose from dead. You owe us an answer. If you say no then you are not neutral you are trying to undermine religion. If you say yes then you can either trade in the mysteries of an unknown natural explanation , a mystery every bit as big as or bigger than God that cannot be experimented with or you can come over to the truth. You have also failed to answer whether the rigorous process of confirming miracles for Catholic sainthood is just wrong
3/31/2008 10:56 PM

#32: Jeff G

I am perfectly willing to let my post stand against your first paragraph.

Your second paragraph is totally and completely irrelevant, so I will ignore it.
3/31/2008 11:06 PM

#33: richard sherlock

You are avoiding the questions so I'll state them simply

1. Do you believe that Lazarus rose from the dead ? Yes or No If yes then explain Nature or God

2. Define science in such a way that all the cases I have cited are included but that e.g. art is not ( a painting has a
naturalistic cause )

3. Is inference a proper method of science ?

4. Would our scientists on a distant plant encountering voyager remains and comparing it with a recently fallen meteor be justified in saying it was designed even if, given their state of knowldge, the cause was completely inscrutible.
4/1/2008 9:37 AM

#34: Clark Goble

Evolutionary theory per se is intellectual non sense and not worthy of serious minds which I presume you are.


Whoa! It's one thing to buy into ID. But to say that evolution is nonsense and not worthy of serious minds... Well that just blows ones mind.

I think FARMS was very unwise to publish the piece and I hope someone does write a rejoinder.
4/1/2008 7:50 PM

#35: Clark Goble

Jeff: And if you allow for non-material explanations then I submit you have given up science.


Is there a way to understand that which isn't self-refuting?

Seriously, even if you are speaking only of methadological materialism rather than materialism proper (as ill defined as both are) the above seems horribly problematic.


4/1/2008 8:01 PM

#36: Clark Goble

Regarding miracles - we have to distinguish between what are called miracles (like the rising of Lazerus) and then miracles the way Hume meant them (contrary to Law). One could well argue that Mormonism entails a commitment to materialism in the sense of adherence to some final set of laws discoverable by science. (It's not a necessary position, although if creation ex nihilo is rejected is seems a reasonable one)

So it seems to me that this question of bringing up miracles, especially in an LDS context, is an odd one. As Arthur C. Clarke stated, a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. There seems to be no reason to adopt miracle in the sense that our Christian brethren who mistakenly adopt creation ex nihilo (or worse occasionalism) adopt.


4/1/2008 8:12 PM

#37: Clark Goble

Supernaturalism was not a conversation stopper to Newton or Boyle why need it be now.


However both Newton and Boyle kept their science and their alchemy and theology rather separated. Boyle in particular did and perhaps was the first to insist on a separation.
4/1/2008 8:22 PM

#38: Jeff G

"And if you allow for non-material explanations then I submit you have given up science."

What I was trying to convey with this was that as soon as somebody says "and then a miracle happens" they have stopped doing science. It doesn't really matter what kind of miracle it is (Mormon or otherwise) or even if the miracle actually did happen, the science has stopped at that point.
4/1/2008 11:06 PM

#39: Clark Goble

In a methadological sense I agree since one is demanding inquiry cease and we're not allowed to ask 'how?' So to that degree I agree 100%.


4/2/2008 10:15 AM

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