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Science vs Religion Part 7: The Flood

By: The Baron

[Part 7 in a multi-part series on Science & Religion from an LDS perspective.  Previous entries in the series: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6]

When identifying the primary points of conflict between science and religion—the areas where most debates seem to start and stop—the top two are almost certainly: (1) evolution and (2) Noah’s flood.  

Saving evolution for later, it is remarkable the amount of attention that Noah and his ark receive, only because of how insignificant that story really is from a religious perspective.  (The story itself contains nothing directly or even indirectly related to what we would call ‘doctrines of salvation’—if it were removed from the Bible altogether, Christianity as a religion changes hardly a bit…)

Yet, upon second glance there are clear and understandable reasons why Noah’s flood gets a disproportionate amount of attention given its tiny amount of scriptural text, and near irrelevance to Christian doctrine.    The most obvious reason is because it contains a clear scientific component capable of analysis.

Most ‘religious’ (read: spiritual) elements have no such component:  It’s hard to argue logically that IF God exists He would certainly have to be visible through a telescope, for example.  Angels and other heavenly visitors presumably don’t leave some sort of ectoplasmic residue when they appear, like the ghosts from “Ghostbusters”.  “Spirits” that continue to live after death wouldn’t necessarily have to show up on an X-ray to exist.  And so on…

Most religious claims, even if true, inherently do not have any component that’s accessible to science to even attempt to prove or disprove it.  (Obviously, this does not stop some on the science side from presuming that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, regardless…)

The story of Noah has that clearly identifiable scientific component.  Sure, no one will be able to prove or disprove a person named Noah existed, let alone he talked with God, but the idea that the entire Earth was covered with water which drowned all forms of animal life except for those in a small boat, presents a story with natural elements that should have some distinct scientific evidence to support it.  To date, such evidence has not been found.  What to make of it then?

When attempting to ‘reconcile’ Noah’s flood, or scriptural stories in general, (make sure you’ve read the previous section on reconciliation if you haven’t already) one of the standard methods is simply to tweak the ‘interpretation’ gauge on your scriptural parser a little further towards ‘figurative’ and ‘metaphorical’, and away from ‘literal’.  Basically, you try to derive whatever spiritual lesson you think the text is trying to impart, and don’t worry so much about strict ‘historicity’.

This is one tactic that many take:  just dismissing the story of Noah’s flood as completely fanciful and figurative, in which case the lack of actual scientific flood evidence doesn’t really matter much.  Others take the tactic that the text is literally correct and that evidence of the flood has been removed from the Earth by God so as to not to countermand the necessity for ‘faith’.  (Or, alternately, that science is so fundamentally incompetent that the scientific evidence for a worldwide flood does exist, just has completely escaped notice to this point…)

One problem with just slapping a ‘figurative’ sticker on Noah and the ark, however, is—again—how insignificant a story it is from a spiritual perspective.  If the existence of that story in Genesis is NOT simply just to record historical fact and report things that actually happened, what would its purpose be?  (There’s no obvious spiritual lesson to be gained…  Compare this to the off-hand mention in Genesis that Methuselah lived to be 969 years old.  If that’s supposed to be figurative—I mean, no one *really* could have lived to be that old, right?—it’s supposed to be figurative apropos what, exactly?)  )

And, on the other side, a problem with the literal interpretation where God has ‘hidden’ the evidence…um, why would God do that, now?  (Wouldn’t tangible evidence of a worldwide flood increase faith in the other parts of scripture?  You know…the important parts?)

The easiest way to find a ‘middle ground’ between the purely figurative and purely literal interpretations of the flood account is fairly simple: the idea of a NON-worldwide flood.

A local flood idea answers the lack of evidence of a global flood, of course, (plus the complementary questions about the development of existing animals all over the globe) and basically answers all of science’s concerns about the story at once.  The question is: how compatible is the local flood idea with scripture?

Here’s some of the relevant scriptural passages in question (from Genesis 7):
1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

  4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
  …
  11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

  17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
  18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
  19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and ball the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
  20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
  21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
  22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
  23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

(Doesn’t sound too ‘figurative’, does it?  Now what?  Fifteen cubits, by the way, is about 30-40 feet.)  

One indirect answer to this question can be found, not in the Bible, but in the Book of Mormon.

In the book of Helaman, we read that the Nephites are wicked (again), and Nephi persuades the Lord to ‘bless’ them with a famine, instead of a war.  From Chapter 11:

5 And so it was done, according to the words of Nephi. And there was a great famine upon the land, among all the people of Nephi. And thus in the *seventy and fourth year the famine did continue, and the work of destruction did cease by the sword but became sore by famine.
  6 And this work of destruction did also continue in the *seventy and fifth year. For the earth was smitten that it was adry, and did not yield forth grain in the season of grain;


Just how widespread was this famine?  Continuing on in verse 6:

and the whole earth was smitten,


Wow, the WHOLE earth?  Really?  Continuing on,

and the whole earth was smitten, even among the Lamanites as well as among the Nephites,


Ah, ha—the WHOLE Earth, meaning the land of the Nephites AND the Lamanites.

Obviously, the use of the phrase “the whole Earth” was not meant to imply that there was a famine in Poland at the same time, but rather as a colloquialism for “the entire land in which we live”.

What are the possibilities, then, that the text in Genesis had the same sort of colloquialism—where the waters covered the “whole earth”, meaning just the local area where the author(s) lived?  How aware were the eventual scribes of the story (since it’s obvious Genesis wasn’t written by Noah) of the broader geography around them?

It’s important to note that Mormon and the other Nephite authors of the Book of Mormon DID know that the Earth (the planet) included more lands than their own—their original ancestry from Jerusalem is a fundamental part of their history.  (Mormon’s inclusion of the second phrase explaining the first may have been in an attempt to avoid misunderstandings about what he meant by ‘the whole earth’)  Therefore, we KNOW they didn’t genuinely think their land was “the whole earth”…yet such phrases make their appearances anyway.

(Some other sections of the Book of Mormon that use the phrase “whole Earth” which probably didn’t mean to imply it was also happening in China:)

Alma 38:7--But behold, the Lord in his great mercy sent his angel to declare unto me that I must stop the work of destruction among his people; yea, and I have seen an angel face to face, and he spake with me, and his voice was as thunder, and it shook the whole earth.


Helaman 3:8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.


We have two potential problem points in accepting the literal meaning:  what did the scriptural writers intend when they used phrases similar to ‘the whole earth’?  And when scripture was translated into English, how appropriate was the phrase ‘the whole earth’ based on the original language?

I’m not a historian of ancient scriptures or languages so I have no specific insight to offer as to these questions, only to note that either one of these two areas could present a problem as to how literally we should interpret the world-wide flood.  We know the text of Genesis was not written down by God Himself, nor likely by Noah, but someone after the fact, after a time where the flood story was likely spread as an oral tradition from place to place.  How likely is it that during that oral tradition, the story naturally came to be known as the flood that covered the whole Earth (meaning ‘the whole land in which we are aware’) without ever intending to mean the ‘whole planet’?

Last month, LDS Science Review discussed an article about a scientist who grew up with a traditional young-earth/creationist upbringing, and later found he couldn’t reconcile those teachings with his scientific studies and ended up forsaking his faith.  The breaking point in his departure from religion?  You guessed it--Noah's "worldwide" flood.

While not strictly an atheist now (the article reports this scientist believes in God…sort of), the fact remains he could not find a way to reconcile religion and science together…and all because he knew religious people who assumed the flood must have been universal, and he felt that in order for 'religion' to be correct at all, he must accept a universal flood as well.  Is that true?

The tragedy here is that as I see it, the idea of a universal flood is so tangential to religious belief that it should never be the primary cause to abandon ‘religion’ altogether.  Can you simply throw away any and all experiences with prayer and the Holy Ghost, not to mention the Atonement and the Resurrection, simply because you can’t see how the flood waters reached the tops of the Himalayas?  Gee, maybe they didn’t!

At the ‘end of the world’ when all is said and done, and mankind finds out, say,  that the story of the flood wasn’t ‘figurative’, but wasn’t literally true in all aspects either, how much difference would that make?  Would you be ‘surprised’, in a “Wow! That changes everything!” sense?  Or would you say, ‘Oh, okay…” and go on to more important things about the universe and our place in it?

I don't know much about the flood whether it was small or large, real or 'figurative'...but I don't really care either.  That's not an important part of my 'religion'--if I were to find out someday that it was any of the above, that would make no difference to me whatsoever.    Is it worth it for anyone to stake their entire foundation of religious belief on the interpretation of a couple of pages of text?

(Additional resource:  Sunstone article discussing the problems between science and religion regarding the flood)

Next: Evolution

Print | posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:04 AM | Filed Under [ The Baron General Theology Science ]

Comments:

#1: Jeff G

"We know the text of Genesis was not written down by God Himself, nor likely by Noah, but someone after the fact, after a time where the flood story was likely spread as an oral tradition from place to place."

Many people, usually evangelicals, will simply refuse to grant this. For them, the idea that the Bible actually is written by God, in a manner of speaking, is very central to their religion. They simply refuse to take one step down the slippery slope of fallibility, although they end up taking one all the same, whether they know it or not.

As for the flood, I always thought that the idea of Noah being swept out to sea in a localized flood, and then staying at sea for a year or so before landing again made perfect sense of the text. This is especially nice for Mormons who believe the Garden of Eden to be in North America.
3/27/2008 1:23 PM

#2: Allen

The important thing about the story of the flood is its message of faith and of obedience to God. It is not important for us to know exactly how the flood occurred. Someday we'll know what happened during the time of Noah, but for now we need to focus on our relationship to God and His Son, Jesus Christ, on having the Holy Ghost with us daily, on keeping God's commandments, and on service to others.

Incidentally, I did a rough calculation of the amount of water needed to cover the whole earth to a depth of 6 miles (slightly higher than Mt. Everest) and came up with a billion cubic miles of water. That is an awfully lot of water! That figure, along with the limited time for the flood to have occurred and the limited time for the water to have receded are some of the reasons why I think the flood, if it did occur, was a local flood. I say "if it did occur", because there is always the possibility that the flood-story is an allegory that was given to teach faith and obedience.
3/27/2008 8:35 PM

#3: Allen

Here are links to two articles about the flood by LDS scholars that are worth reading.

http://convergencesciencereligion.org/2007/10/noahs-flood-modern-scholarship-mormon.html
3/28/2008 10:02 AM

#4: Jared

Alma 10:22 says...

"Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword." (emphasis added)

The "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion" (1) states that the people in the days of Noah were utterly destroyed in the Flood.

Additionally, Elder Bruce R. McConkie (among many others) states that the "...flood was the baptism of the earth." (2)

Latter-day Saints believe in baptism [by immersion]. Thus, if Noah's flood was a "universal deluge" (2) and a cleansing of the Earth from the sinful stains upon it, then it could NOT have been localized to Noah alone. The Earth would be baptized by complete immersion, just as we are.

A side note about Science...

Current [scientific] evidence--or lack of--is always subject to the ever-changing understanding gained from observation. [Science] IS observation. Carbon-14 dating, geological markers, etc. are all based on a set of standards that our finite minds have devised--based on our previous finite observations.

It is foolish to think that at ANY time we have ever had all the standards necessary to conclude the [truth]. If anything, [science] has only proved that we consistently do NOT have the standards necessary. Our newest scientific observations always supercede our previous ones.

Thus, we should never wholly align ourselves to shifting conclusions.

If scholarship agrees that a millimeter equals a certain distance, and so uses it to measure length... the standard only holds up to those who accept it as correct. But if God were to say 'My millimeter is actually 1.5mm to 1mm of yours'... well the whole system is thrown off.

What is sad about the Post-Mormon Scientist who has left the faith, is that he abandoned his life long beliefs and knowledge (I assume having received spiritual confirmation along the way--"What greater witness can you have than from God?" (3) ) for a set of constantly-shifting observations by the next great minds of the next great generation of scientists.

If [Nature] is, in truth, created and governed by God, and is the observable gauge by which we determine our standards, then it is 100% plausible that its Creator can (or did) change how it is able to be measured--changed for His purposes.

That being said, I would submit that the geological evidence of "Age" currently observed as truth by science, is actually post-Flood in its advent. Also, that the standards we use to determine this age--as compared to God's standards--are inherently flawed.

When one starts incorrectly, one can never be correct without starting again--correctly.

Yes, we can measure the time lapsed in carbon loss, and extrapolate the number out to find the age of geological bodies, etc. I say that what we see as the current time of carbon-14 loss is different than it once was.

Our current canon of LDS scripture (I feel) does not give us the FULL reason why God would need to destroy all the earth's people, except for 8 souls. What we do know of His reasons, is only found in 3 short verses.

"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." (4) (emphasis added)

Hugh Nibley has found and shown references that may clarity the Lord's reasons in his book "Enoch the Prophet."

Nibley sites apocryphal texts to support the idea that Satan, with his pre-earth knowledge of creation intact, taught wicken men how to manipulate Nature itself... in an attempt to overthrow the laws of God and act as though they had become Gods unto themselves. Their perversions had become so gross and so base, that it did cause the Lord to NOT ONLY destroy them, but afterward to change the very makeup of Nature--preventing Satan from teaching Noah's offspring how to do it again. Preventing them from corrupting "his way upon the earth" (4) ever again.

This supports the idea that our current observable, natural world is not the same as the original, pre-Flood, observable world.

Perhaps the accepted age of Mt. Everest is incorrect, because our standard for dating it is incorrect. Perhaps Everest or other significant mountains did not exist at the time of Noah's Flood... making it perfectly acceptable to cover the "whole earth" with 30-40 ft. of water. Maybe any mountains that existed pre-Flood were leveled in a series of earthquakes--warning repentance--before the Earth's "universal" baptism.

I personally find it much easier to believe that God can and has changed Nature's nature for our Eternal benefit--rather than believe in the notion that we should modify our view of the Flood to fit within the current, and ever-changing observations of [Science.]

We should find proofs around us to support scripture, rather than change scripture to support our findings.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1. Joseph Smith, DHC 4:461; also TPJS, 194
2. Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, p. 289
3. D&C 6:23
4. Genesis 6:11-13
3/28/2008 6:41 PM

#5: Jeff G

Oh, it's so hard not to rip into that most recent comment!

Baron,

What I'm curious about in this series is what your thesis is, exactly, that you are defending. Is the compatibility of religion and science a conclusion which you are mounting arguments for, or is it rather a premise which you are overcoming potential objections to? Is the compatibility of science and religion something which plays a role in how we interpret religious or scientific claims, or rather is it a claim which emerges after the two have already been interpreted and found in harmony with each other? One of these amounts to a much stronger position than the other, in my opinion. I think if you could specifically lay out what specific claim you are defending or putting forth it might be easier to see these posts as a coherent whole.
3/28/2008 11:03 PM

#6: Jack

Good post, Baron. Getting a better fix on how the Hebrews viewed the world will help us "moderns" to see what kinds of assumptions we're reading into the scriptures. It opens us up to being better informed by the sciences with regard to religion. The two needn't always be at war with each other.
3/29/2008 7:31 AM

#7: Jared

Jeff G,

I'd love to open a discussion in the comments section, if you're willing. The Internet is an interesting place... one can just take shots across another's bow, without having to construct a follow-up defense.
3/29/2008 9:28 AM

#8: Jeff G

Fair enough, Jared. Let us do battle! ;-)

While I find your defense of a global flood seriously wonting, I will instead focus my attention on the "side note about science".

You make it sound like science is unreliable because it is based in observation. For starters, science is not based exclusively in observation, but this point seems somewhat peripheral. The main objection is that science is reliable because it is based primarily in observation. Unlike religion, or one view of religion anyways, observation about the world is allowed to disconfirm or overrule tradition and authoritative declarations.

I would also wonder what religion is based on, if not observation broadly construed as experience? Sure, religion is based in traditions and authoritative texts and the like, but where did they come from if not by way of experience? Are you really going to suggest that religious experiences are easier to interpret and therefore more reliable than scientific experience? I would find it very difficult to believe such a claim.

"we should never wholly align ourselves to shifting conclusions"

The scientist would absolutely agree with this. While science is the best method ever devised for proving some theory false, it isn't the best at proving something true. This was the most salient lesson taken from the Einsteinian revolution. Of course, I don't see how religion is any different in this capacity. If we have some theory, T, which is taken as true solely because T says that T is true, then I submit to you that we have exactly zero reason to believe that T is true. Question: What greater witness can you have that our version of God is right than our version of God saying that our version of God is right? Answer: Just about any witness at all.

Yes, science is constantly shifting, but this is a good thing. Scientific opinion only shifts, all things being equal, when a new theory fits the data better, not worse. This means that the more scientific opinion has shifted, the more reason we have to trust it, the exact opposite of the conclusion you reach. Furthermore, I would suggest that religious opinion is constantly shifting just as scientific opinion does. Unfortunately, these changes in religious understanding seem to follow social trends more than any thing else.

Regarding God changing the laws to make everything look older than it actually is: Why would God ever do that? I thought the God of Mormonism operated within unchanging laws, nor changing them on a whim? Do we have any reason whatsoever to believe that God actually did do such a thing other than our mere assertion that God could have? Why did God change everything, including radioactive decay in numerous elements, sediment layers, tree rings, speed of light, etc. to make it look uniformly old, a move which amounts to nothing less than flat out deception?

All of these conceptual moves simply reek of desperation. Most seem highly implausible if not outright impossible, and exactly none are motivated by anything other than ad hoc speculation in the hopes of saving some failed interpretation which, The Baron argues, is not forced upon us by revelation.
3/29/2008 1:09 PM

#9: R. Gary

Baron,

Duane Jeffery acknowledges, in his 2004 Sunstone article, that the LDS Church teaches a universal Flood:

What have LDS prophets and apostles taught about the Flood? To date, all seem to have accepted Noah as an historical personage [and] uniformly there seems to be a tacit assumption that [the Flood] was universal. Usually it is treated as a miracle to be accepted without further analysis. (Sunstone, October 2004, 36; emphasis added.)


LDS.org -> Scriptures -> Guide to the Scriptures -> Flood At Noah's Time:

During Noah's time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing (1 Pet. 3:20-21).... After the waters had receded, the land of America became a choice land, Ether 13:2.


Of course, not everyone believes what the LDS Church teaches.
3/29/2008 6:51 PM

#10: The Baron

The "baptism" of the Earth is a common interpretation of the flood, saying the Earth needed to be immersed in water preparatory to the baptism by fire at the Savior's Second Coming. My question has always been, though, was that an interpretation created after the fact based on the idea of a world-wide flood, rather than an interpretation that's readily supportable through scripture as to a primary reason for the flood happening in the first place? There's no mention in scripture of the necessity for the Earth to be baptized. Even taking the scriptures at face value, the flood was caused by the wickedness of the people in Noah's time. If they were more righteous, the implication from Genesis is that the flood would not have happened, although under the 'baptism' idea it would have needed to happen regardless.

(A similar after-the-fact interpretation is that missionary service is a 'tithe' of your life--2 years around when you turn 20. That works, except for the fact that it's only in modern times that missionaries serve at the age of 20 as a standard--if it was really a 'tithe' on life from the Lord's perspective, wouldn't we have seen that from the beginning of missionary work in the Church?)


Is the compatibility of religion and science a conclusion which you are mounting arguments for, or is it rather a premise which you are overcoming potential objections to?


Good question--I see the first as being fundamentally impossible due to the lack of full information about all things. One can't prove that religion and science are compatible, especially since 'religion' differs from person to person. I'm defending the premise that science and religion don't have to be treated as if they are mutually exclusive--that a religious person can accept science without having to choose one or the other as the guy in the LDS Science Review post did.

Now there are issues, like the flood, that will bring this theorized compatibility to the test--and those that accept the flood as clearly universal then accept the burden of proof for why science hasn't found any indication that this is the case. Whether "all" LDS General Authorities have accepted a universal flood (possibly by default rather than pro-active revelation), it is true that there has been a difference of opinion regarding evolution amongst LDS GAs for many years. Who's right? Isn't it possible that many GA's take the literal interpretation as the 'default' until something points them otherwise? Since I believe God works within science, I don't believe God would feel a need to flood the Earth and then miraculously remove the evidence--essentially take the flood outside of science. However, this is one issue where there will always be disagreement. My larger point is that Noah's flood is nowhere near important enough a story for anyone to base their testimony of science or religion merely on that disagreement...
3/29/2008 7:55 PM

#11: The Baron

Alma 10:22 says...

"Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword." (emphasis added)

The "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion" (1) states that the people in the days of Noah were utterly destroyed in the Flood.


This scripture as written says nothing about a worldwide flood--it says the people of Noah's time were wicked, and utterly destroyed. Matches up with a local flood perfectly. The Nephites are told, except for the righteous people *in the land* (not 'on the Earth') they would also be destroyed, not by (local) flood as were the people in the days of Noah, but through other means.

How do we know "the people in the days of Noah" meant all the people on the Earth. Should we assume if the Nephites didn't repent, the Lord was threatening everyone on the planet with death by famine, pestilence, or the sword? Or isn't it more logical He was talking about local retribution amongst the land of the Nephites...and thus as an extension, was possibly talking about the people of Noah as a local instance of retribution?
3/29/2008 8:01 PM

#12: Clark Goble

Like "the Baron" I think the local geography interpretation is quite defensible. I used to have a nice little paper by I believe William Hamblin arguing from the Hebrew words why a local flood is most likely. Then there is Nibley's approach which emphasizes that our accounts are from participants with limited view and not an omniscient recorder which is how most people appear to take it.

However Gary is also right that pretty well all GA until recently have taken it fairly literally. Even the folks most prone to scientific interpretations (Roberts, Talmage, Widstoe) seemed to suggest that at a minimum there was universal rain covering the earth with a thin layer of moisture. (I'm not sure how this would be rain in the high himalayas - but that's beside the point)

How current GAs view it is more complex. There are hints that at least a few take a more open view but definitely many still adopt a more literalist view. However as with Book of Mormon geography I expect that to change as the problems are better known and the close readings of the scriptures themselves are addressed.


3/29/2008 8:58 PM

#13: Clark Goble

I found it! I'd been looking for this for years. I thought I'd lost it in a hard drive crash around 10 years ago. But no, it's still here. This is from Morm-Ant from way back in the early 90's. It's a great little post by William Hamblin that's worth reading:



1. The question that has been raise is: how does the story of Noah relate
to Actual Past Events (APE)?

2. Is the story of Noah a Myth? Of course. Is it therefore Fiction? Not
necessarily. History or Legend can be Myth.

3. Does every element of the story of Noah have to accurately represent
Actual Past Events (APE) to be considered History? Not at all. First, no
History is 100% equatable with APE. Secondly, some elements of the story
may be History, while others may be later editorial additions of Legend or
Fiction. We must remember that the OT has been edited, probably multiple
times. The problem is to determine which elements of the Noah text are
archaic, and which are later editorial interpretations and comments.

4. If the story of Noah is purely fictional (i.e. there was never a Noah,
and the story bears absolutely no relationship to APE), can it still be
scripture? I think not, but some might argue otherwise. This is not to
say that no fiction can be scripture. The parables of Jesus are of course
scripture, but there are several problems with applying this to Noah by
analogy.

5. No one that has posted on the subject seems to have taken the time to
read the accounts of Noah in the original Hebrew. It would save a great
deal of time and effort if people paid close attention to what the text
actually says and doesn't say, and how different people interpret the
meaning of the text, rather than simply endlessly speculating.

For example, in chapter 7, vs. 3, 4, 6, and 8, the KJV text uses the word
"earth." In Hebrew, two different words are used. 'RTz = eretz in 3 & 6,
and 'DMH = adamah in 4 & 8. More accurately by modern English usage, eretz
means land (e.g. eretz israel = land of Israel), and adamah means ground.
Neither necessarily means earth in the modern sense of the entire globe.
There has been a shift in meaning of earth away from ground to planet.
Read the Noah story, replacing the word earth for land or ground, and see
if it doesn't read quite differently. God sends the flood to destroy
everything off the face of all the land, but which land?

Nearly the entire Noah story can be read in the sense of a regional flood
which wiped out a particular civilization, and which carried a boat down
the river into the ocean where the occupants (who may never have seen the
ocean) looked out the window and saw nothing be endless waters.

6. The textual problem with this interpretation comes from verses like
7:19 which reads " and it [the flood] covered all the high mountains which
were under all the heavens" (KVJ = "all the high hills that were under the
whole heaven, were covered [by the flood].") "All under heaven (or under
the sun)" is the typical ancient Near Eastern and biblical way to refer to
the entire planet. (Anciently the "earth" was conceived of as a disk, with
a dome like heaven over it.)

My interpretation is that this specific type of language is the product of
later editors, who themselves interpreted whatever archaic sources they had
about the flood to refer to a global rather than regional flood. This
interpretation requires the assumption that there were editors of the Bible
who were either not inspired, or were not inerrantly inspired.

7. My final point is, if it is possible interpret the text in a manner
which reconciles it with the available scientific evidence, why don't we do
so?



William J. Hamblin
3/29/2008 9:10 PM

#14: Jeff G

Baron,

I completely respect the position taken by Jared* at LDS Review. He inspired my more than anybody else to start a blog "Issues in Mormon Doctrine" for the old-timers, and him and I used to blog together at Mormons and Evolution. I'm still convinced that a harmony between Mormonism and Science is possible, but I think a lot of work must be done.
3/30/2008 4:19 AM

#15: Clark Goble

Out of curiosity Jeff, what do you see as "a lot of work." I'm here thinking of formal issues rather than simply persuading many lay members and even leadership.
3/31/2008 11:24 AM

#16: Jeff G

Well, I see the two as being one and the same. My idea of reconciliation would be making people perfectly comfortable accepting a strong version of both Mormonism and Science; that neither Mormonism nor Science would provide any reason for disbelief or reservation with respect to the other.

Here are a couple of areas which I have in mind:

1. Astronomy. The astronomy laid out by Joseph Smith and his immediate followers was rather fantastic including eternal universes, Kolob, spheres of glass, the earth as living and so on. While it has certainly become fashionable to simply dismiss most of these teachings, this should not be interpreted as reconciliation.

2. Free Will. I think that determinism/compatibilism is pretty much a part of a materialistic worldview which is at the heart of both science and Mormonism, but people such as Blake and Geoff refuse to give into such a view due to their allegiance to the Mormon doctrines of responsibility and agency. I understand that this is an issue for pretty much everybody, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, but work certainly needs to be done.

3. Neuroscience. Closely related to the free will issue, I see modern mind-science as being very much at odds with the Mormon conception of the mind. There simply doesn't seem to be any room for any thing like a soul or intelligence or anything else resembling a Cartesian theater in the scientific study of the mind. Sure, this field is in its infancy, but this seems like pretty cold comfort to me.

4. Evolution, of course. As you know, I worked pretty hard to develop a strong reconciliation with that fall=birth model, but most people were still not convinced. It seems pretty clear to me that most members still see their religion as a source of serious reservations about evolution.
3/31/2008 2:17 PM

#17: Jeff G

It seems that I have very different ideas of what reconciliation amounts to that The Baron has. He simply seems to be looking for a logical compatibility between science and religion where the possibility of reconciliation is taken as a premise which one uses in the interpretation of science and/or religion.

I, on the other hand, hold out for a reconciliation in which neither science or religion counts as reason to disbelieve the other were, preferably, reconciliation is a conclusion reached after the interpretation and comparison of each is in; it is a conclusion reached rather than a premise which is assumed.


3/31/2008 2:47 PM

#18: Jared

Jeff G, thanks for taking the time earlier... "Seriously wonting" is a bit harsh. Also, it's "wanting." ;^)

Also, I wrote this before I just now read your comments #14, 16, 17.

I'm assuming you are LDS. The reason it matters is the doctrine I'm using for my conclusions is unique to the LDS canon of scripture and Apostolic commentary. If we're on the same page with these, then I think we can reason together a bit more easily. If we disagree on these simple points of foundation, then we may never come to an understanding.

Let's talk more about the global flood...

First, a little about where "I" am coming from:

I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. I know that he saw and spoke with God the Father and Jesus Christ. I know that he restored the Priesthood to the earth. I know that he translated the Book of Mormon, and that it is a true book of scripture. I know that he received direct revelations from the Lord Jesus Christ, mostly contained in the Doctrine & Covenants. I know that Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, and every President of the church since then has been the Lord's mouthpiece in an unbroken chain of authority to speak for God on earth. I know that members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators also. I know all of this because I first read and heard about it. I pondered it. I prayed about it. I fasted over it. I prayed more. I have received my own personal witness from God that it is very real, and absolutely true. I have spent the last 25 years re-proving these truths every day.

With these things understood to be truth, I have a very strong foundation to stand upon as I view the world around me. I will never leave the church because I can't reconcile a bit of science to my beliefs. Instead I will look for ways I can change a specific scientific conclusion so that it fits within my knowledge (though very limited) of the truth I have received from God. I will always attempt to view Nature and its systems, patterns, and particulars from God's perspective... since man's is inherently incapable.

"Is there any conflict between science and religion? There is no conflict in the mind of God, but often there is conflict in the minds of men." -- Henry Eyring

So with the above understanding, and a simple reading of LDS scripture and modern Apostolic commentary... I can only conclude one thing; Noah's Flood was universal in scope, and the earth (all of it) was completely covered in water--being baptized by immersion.


The Universal Flood

Genesis 6:17 says the flood destroyed "all flesh... from under heaven" and "every thing that is in the earth shall die."

Genesis 9:11 says the flood destroyed the earth.

1 Peter 3:20 says that ONLY "eight souls" were saved in the flood.

D&C 138:9 Pres. Joseph F. Smith quotes from 1 Peter 3 the same verse that only "eight souls" were saved in the flood.

Mormon Doctrine states:
FLOOD OF NOAH
See Baptism. In the days of Noah the Lord sent a universal flood which completely immersed the whole earth and destroyed all flesh except that preserved on the ark. (Gen. 6; 7; 8; 9; Moses 7:38-45; 8; Ether 13:2.) "Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood." (Teachings, p. 12) This flood was the baptism of the earth; before it occured the land was all in one place, a condition that will again prevail during the millennial era. (D&C 133:23-24) There is no question but what many of the so-called geological changes in the earth's surface, which according to geological theories took place over ages of time, in reality occured in a matter of a few short weeks incident to the universal deluge. (Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp. 414-436.)

If Noah's flood was localized, then "all flesh... from under heaven" means in his neighborhood. This is highly unlikely after 2,000 years of populating, post Eden, and contradictory to the Genesis passage.

If the flood was the baptism of the Earth, then it could not have been localized, but would (LDS doctrine) be only by immersion.

Some people of pride take Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine as "non-canon" and would disagree with his statement on the flood. I believe that view is wrong. Elder McConkie wrote the book as a member of the First Quorum of Seventy.

His first edition was scrutinized and changed, with approval by the First Presidency to publish a 2nd Edition in 1966. The major changes mostly came in the 'tone' of his entries, and a couple of controversial statements about the Catholic church and blacks never holding the Priesthood. The 2nd Edition of the book stands to this day.

Elder McConkie was NOT a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator at the time he first wrote the book. However, after over 25 years as a Seventy, he WAS called to and ordained as an Apostle in the Quorum of the Twelve by Pres. Harold B. Lee, and sustained as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to the church. His book still stood, intact.

I would submit that Elder Bruce R. McConkie's commentary on Noah's Flood is true. It remained unchanged between editions of his book, and stood as a testimony of itself throughout his later Apostolic ministry.

I think additional reading would be profitable for everyone, in Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp. 414-436

MORE BELOW....
3/31/2008 2:51 PM

#19: Jared

Peleg's Pangea

With the foundation established that Noah's Flood was universal and not localized, let's talk a bit about Elder McConkie's statement that the geological changes in the earth's surface did not take place over millions of years, but within a few short weeks "incident" to the "universal" flood.

Modern Geological theory states that the supercontinent Pangea existed roughly 250 million years ago, before each component continent was separated into its current place on the globe. However, in Genesis 10:25 we read that the earth was "broken up" in the days of Peleg. An interesting inclusion by the pre Christian era author, considering the supercontinent theory of Pangea only emerged in science in the 1920s.

In 1831 the Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that "the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided." (D&C 133:24)

Interesting geological theory put forth by Joseph Smith in 1831. At some point in history, the earth was divided!? Crazy!

Noah's "earth" consisted of one supercontinent--according to the Lord Jesus Christ, The Prophet Joseph Smith, President Joseph Fielding Smith, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, the book of Genesis, etc.


==========

Jeff G, you got a little heated in your comments. I respect The Baron for his reply... calm and collected. I think we can all agree that we're just talking here. "ad hoc speculation" ...? "reek of desparation" ... ? Comments like these border on fallacious.

==========


Reconciling Revelation with Observation

The continents, according to scripture and Apostolic commentary, broke off from one supercontinent AFTER the flood. How can this be? Geological evidence shows us that this happened 180 million years ago--not 4,000! People of pride come to this point in their observation and either abandon their faith, or they begin to change their belief system to fit in within their [science]. Both are tragic.

If one is standing on a foundation of revealed truths--from God--then one is on solid, unchanging ground. If one views the world around him from a position of ever-changing opinions, viewpoints, and observations, then he will never be able to establish a full view of the truth for himself. He must first align with the Creator and come unto Him, before he can receive a complete understanding of Creation. (see Abraham 3)

So if in fact the Flood WAS universal, and the earth WAS gathered together in one supercontinent before the rain fell... and this is knowledge we trust in from God... then we have to stay on our foundation and see how we can reconcile the geological markers or lack thereof.

As I referenced the first time, Hugh Nibley sited apocryphal Hebrew texts of Enoch to conclude the full reason God needed to destroy the earth of all flesh and actually CHANGE nature. This is not ad hoc. This is a legitimate view of things as they could be.

He writes about a peculiar brand of wickedness that made the Flood mandatory, and how Satan had taught mankind to so pervert the ways of Truth and Light, that if permitted to live, there could have been no Atonement made and all would be lost. This was evil with a supernatural twist. The "Watchers" had yielded to earthly temptation, mingled with the daughters of men, and used their great knowledge to establish an order of things on earth in direct contradiction to what was intended by God. Their system was a deliberate exploitation of the heavenly order, for the most evil, wicked, gross, and sordid of earthly ambitions. "It was no open revolt against God but a clever misuse of His name; no renunciation of religion but a perversion of piety."

These degenerate children of God ultimately challenged Him to do his worst. Not because they thought He would not, but because they had become so powerful in controlling Nature, they actually believed they could fight Him and win.

In order for the Lord to prevent this from happening again, He changed "Nature" to prevent Satan and his followers from teaching men again.

This COULD be the reason why our view of Nature is not as Nature actually is. I'm not saying that I know this IS the case, but definitely resonates with the truths that I DO know.

Anyone can read Nibley's stuff here: Enoch the Prophet Hugh Nibley, pp. 3-18

The Lord, at different times, has cursed the land so people could not hold on to their riches (Helaman 13: 33, 36; Mormon 1:18) by making them slippery. How does He do this? If the Earth can withhold its treasure, certainly it can withhold its secrets of geology, biology, etc.

Why would he do it? The Lord would do it for the same reasons He does anything... to make sure that He can bring to pass our Immortality and Eternal Life (Moses 1:39)... that we are ABLE to reach Exaltation. That's it!

I'll leave the details up to Him. :^)

3/31/2008 2:52 PM

#20: Jeff G

Ha! Thanks for the heads up on the "wanting" thing. That's kind of embarrassing. With regard to the heated response, I don't think I said anything all that heated to The Baron. Although I will admit that a little bit of fire and brimstone was aimed at you. I guess you can keep the calm and collective compliment all for yourself since you earned it.

I am curious, however, as to why pointing out that something is ad hoc speculation is at all fallacious. Furthermore, if something seems entirely unmotivated, except to save some theory which we are by no means forced to save, how is this not desperate? In other words, can you give us any reason whatsoever to believe that God altered all measures of time scale other than to maintain your strict reading of the earth's age which few members would believe we simply MUST adhere to?

These, in my mind, are the most pressing issues for you model. In the next comment I will address your comments in a little more detail.
3/31/2008 3:41 PM

#21: Clark Goble

Jeff, it seems to me that your discussion of determinism is very weird. By far the most dominant view of physical theory isn't that of determinism but of indeterminism. Admittedly one could call the MWI of QM a deterministic system but only because every possibility is also actual. But the only deterministic view is David Bohm's and it's just not that popular. Most of the evidence while not completely outlawing hidden variable theories certainly points away from it.

So I'm surprised you'd see this as really an issue of free will. Now I am agnostic on the issue of the nature of free will. However as you know one problem I have with Blake's view is that most physicists appear to feel that a background independent physical theory is necessary. (See for instance this paper of Lee Smolin's) And free will conceived as he conceives of it demands that physical theory be background dependent. (i.e. that time be Newtonian time)

But determinism? I think you're simply too attached to the idea.

Neuroscience is more difficult since, for example, if one adopts functionalism, then there is no problem. (Not that I accept functionalism, mind you. I just use it as an example.) Certainly since B. H. Roberts a kind of Cartesianism has been popular. But there are many views. I suppose one can see Blake's approach as kind of Cartesianism with caveats. I think though that there are many other alternative - even dominant ones in the history of LDS thought. (Say Orson Pratt's or Brigham Young's)

Plus I just don't think most people have a sophisticated enough view of intelligences for this to even reign as an issue. Now if you mean "the brain is all there is" then that might be more of a problem. (Unless one adopts a Thomist like view of soul or functionalism, as I mentioned) But I don't think neuroscience is remotely close to asserting that. I think it a premise many neuroscientists hold. But that's quite a different matter...
3/31/2008 4:00 PM

#22: Jared

Jeff G,

I knew the fire was aimed at me... That's what I meant. :^)

All of these conceptual moves simply reek of desperation. Most seem highly implausible if not outright impossible, and exactly none are motivated by anything other than ad hoc speculation in the hopes of saving some failed interpretation which, The Baron argues, is not forced upon us by revelation.


I don't want to start arguing in logic circles, but most of this entire page of comments could be called Ad Hoc. I don't know why I am singled out. I think your comments were bordering on Ad Hominem in nature, and was hoping we could avoid that. I am simply putting forward my feelings on this subject, as is The Baron in the first place, and feel it should be respected. They don't reek of desperation, and are not highly implausible or impossible. They are not failed interpretations either.

But you are right. We are not forced to save my theory, or any other. What would force us to save any of these theories?

Also, I have already given you a good reason "in other words" why God would alter the means by which we measure His Creation... to prevent fallen man from attempting to destroy His plan for us... AGAIN! I believe that this could be the reason for the Universal Flood, and the reason our observable world is a bit 'off' from what it should be.

Nibley is not the only author to write about "knowledge" being given to man for the purpose of evil.
3/31/2008 4:01 PM

#23: Jeff G

As I said earlier, I thought it rather funny how you thought I was bordering on being fallacious when I called your position fallacious (ad hoc is a fallacy after all). Another fallacy would be that of ad hominem attacks such as calling anybody who disagrees with you "people of pride." While I certainly called your position desperate, I never called you anything.

"I have a very strong foundation to stand upon as I view the world around me." Just because you believe some position very strongly, this does not make the position itself any stronger.

"I will always attempt to view Nature and its systems, patterns, and particulars from God's perspective... since man's is inherently incapable." Okay, but how are you going to do that? Why must we assume that the only way to catch a glimpse of God's perspective is through apostles and the like? Why can't we simply look at the same data God is looking at, although admittedly from a less encompassing perspective? What advantage is there to having God look at the data, then apostles (imperfectly) look to God, the us (imperfectly) look to the apostles while not looking directly at the data ourselves for some help in the process?

"Some people of pride take Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine as "non-canon" and would disagree with his statement on the flood. I believe that view is wrong." It is my position that prophet's should only be taken by Mormons as speaking by revelation when they claim to be, otherwise they have all sorts of other worries to deal with (just look at any standard anti-Mormon site for a long list of examples). Your position, however, seems to be far, far different. You seem to think that once somebody becomes an apostle (not even a prophet!) not only is everything they say "canon", but everything which they wrote before becoming as apostle suddenly becomes canon as well. I think that this flat out contradicts many aspects of Mormon doctrine (not the book, mind you) which allows for even the canonical scriptures to be wrong.

"If one is standing on a foundation of revealed truths--from God--then one is on solid, unchanging ground." Hate to break it to you, but revealed truths change quite a bit. Consider revealed truths about the Godhead, eternal punishment, plural marriage, who can have the priesthood, temple ceremonies, punishments for breaking the Sabbath, the law of consecration, word of wisdom, etc.

I find it interesting that you trust Hugh Nibley's interpretation of the book of Enoch. The author of that book was not a prophet. Hugh Nibley was not a prophet, but did, however, believe in a limited flood. Is this the solid unchanging ground you speak of? What in the world makes you think that God's "changing nature" means anything akin to a systematic manipulation of physical data in order to give everything the appearance of age? Wouldn't this be the exact opposite of taking away from men knowledge which Satan could use to mislead them?

"If the Earth can withhold its treasure, certainly it can withhold its secrets of geology, biology, etc." See, this is where things get really "ad hoc" and "desperate". We aren't debate what hypothetically may or may not have conceivably happened. We are debating what did happen, and this requires that we have reasons to believe something other than our motivation to save some doctrinal hobby from extinction. We have no reason, whatsoever to believe that God makes the earth hides the secrets of biology and plenty of reason not believe such a scenario. This is what makes your position look so weak.
3/31/2008 4:23 PM

#24: Jeff G

Clark,

I wasn't trying to get too specific with regard to free will and consciousness problems. What I was trying to get at is that as far to scientist can tell, the brain doesn't need anything else, and indeed there doesn't seem to be much room left for there to be anything else. The idea of a self-existence spirit which does any thing more than receive epiphenomenal data seems to be pretty much ruled out, as far as I can tell. Again, while I'm not saying that one position in the religion/science debate is in logical contradiction with the other, I am saying that one side does seem to give reason not to believe the other.
3/31/2008 4:29 PM

#25: Jeff G

Jared,

"most of this entire page of comments could be called Ad Hoc."

I actually have agreed with you to some extent, and I called Baron out on it in #5 and #17. The difference, however, is that Baron is interpreting scripture from a premise which is independently motivated, which is the difference between something being ad hoc and not. I singled you out for your theory that God systematically altered the appearance of age on the earth for no reason whatsoever. You disagree, saying that the reason was to protect us from some knowledge which Satan might give us, but what reason do we have to believe any such thing? You keep falling back to "it could have been the case that...", the very mark of ad hoc finagling.

I never said that we are "forced" to defend anything. Rather, I was saying that scripture and revelation to not commit Mormons (or "force" them) to a view that the flood was global in nature.

What I find most interesting is why you are so worried about the flood being global. If there is anything about Baron's post with which I whole heartily agree it's that there doesn't seem to be any important which hangs on the point. If you honestly believe that the earth is a living creature with enough sentience to require baptism then reconciling the flood with science is the least of my worries in this thread.

The baptism of the earth was never presented as revelation by anybody. It is not scriptural. It is simply part of a theory which makes sense of the future burning of the earth by fire and it future destiny as the celestial kingdom. The ideas that the earth is alive, was born, is breathing and is in need of baptism (all things which have been taught by prophets, by the way) contradict science at such a fundamental level, and furthermore seem so utterly trivial in nature, than I completely follow Baron is rejecting them all as simply wrong.
3/31/2008 4:42 PM

#26: The Baron

Just for additional reference, here's a recent Times & Seasons post on the subject...
4/14/2008 12:27 PM

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